Rolling Road Day - 24th Jan 2004 - G-Force Motorsport
26 January 2004, 06:51 PM
#451
RR is Ramp Rate
Don't know what it means though...
???
Don't know what it means though...
The acceleration (ramp) rate used for testing power
can affect the output measurement for some vehicles - particularly turbocharged vehicles. ShootOut automatically applies the correct ramp rate for your vehicle type.
can affect the output measurement for some vehicles - particularly turbocharged vehicles. ShootOut automatically applies the correct ramp rate for your vehicle type.
26 January 2004, 06:53 PM
#452
It also locks Drive-Train Inertia! ???
TN?
Drive-train inertia is an important factor in accurate power measurement. Correction factors for inertia have been calculated for all common vehicles. The operator choses the vehicle type from a selection menu rather than having to calculate the appropriate figures. ShootOut automatically applies the correct drive-train inertia correction for your vehicle type.
TN?
26 January 2004, 07:26 PM
#453
Harvey
Re the lbs - more of a pi*s take
I'm actually happy with the results..... its about what I can expect on the td05/06, especially given the PAW was 332bhp. and yep it is an Andy Turbo!
I guess I was a little gutted having got 415 at Powerstation so I thought I'd get more than 419 at G Force, even PS thought I'd get more......and I got little side tracked thinking about the headers again and the ifs/buts...... i.e. were they working 100% on the rollers?
The headers themselves are about the best finish I've seen on a set - the flanges are fairly minor - once you have them machined (if this is required - Not on all) - its the bracket that holds the top of the up-pipe on which is the problem and needs to be rectified.......the up-pipe just moves too much once the cars heated up
Re Turbo..... this Turbo is simply fantastic for the minimal outlay and low lag levels - cant grumble at all at the outlay and I'd advise most people who are looking for similar power to me to just get one - I cant see thats there much better at that price - in fact is there anything better at that price? - doubt it
I always wanted to have a car that was driveable.... i.e. less lag like the old VF28........... so I opted for this Turbo to see what its like - I have not been disappointed - its like a bullet - overtaking (who cares about other cars with this Turbo!!!)
Re bigger turbo - I guess your spot on - I need to go for a test Drive - thats why I've stalled - you know I have the internals - just need to put them into practice!!
So overall a very good day - I guess I can always hope for more - I will be going to Well Lane once the Headers are fixed just to look at the comparative figures there........
I guess my aim was always to aim for very high bhp figures and its not through lack of money......its more that I wanted a car whose power I could use and not one simple mapped for RR days with a power band higher up........this is why I opted for the td05/06 - much to the disappointment of a few people I know.......
Before I make the next step (if I do) then I would love a test drive in your Wagon - your the only one with more power that has offered this...... to me that says something.......
I'll drop a mail later on
Steve
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/26/2004 8:11:25 PM]
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/26/2004 8:15:38 PM]
Re the lbs - more of a pi*s take
I'm actually happy with the results..... its about what I can expect on the td05/06, especially given the PAW was 332bhp. and yep it is an Andy Turbo!
I guess I was a little gutted having got 415 at Powerstation so I thought I'd get more than 419 at G Force, even PS thought I'd get more......and I got little side tracked thinking about the headers again and the ifs/buts...... i.e. were they working 100% on the rollers?
The headers themselves are about the best finish I've seen on a set - the flanges are fairly minor - once you have them machined (if this is required - Not on all) - its the bracket that holds the top of the up-pipe on which is the problem and needs to be rectified.......the up-pipe just moves too much once the cars heated up
Re Turbo..... this Turbo is simply fantastic for the minimal outlay and low lag levels - cant grumble at all at the outlay and I'd advise most people who are looking for similar power to me to just get one - I cant see thats there much better at that price - in fact is there anything better at that price? - doubt it
I always wanted to have a car that was driveable.... i.e. less lag like the old VF28........... so I opted for this Turbo to see what its like - I have not been disappointed - its like a bullet - overtaking (who cares about other cars with this Turbo!!!)
Re bigger turbo - I guess your spot on - I need to go for a test Drive - thats why I've stalled - you know I have the internals - just need to put them into practice!!
So overall a very good day - I guess I can always hope for more - I will be going to Well Lane once the Headers are fixed just to look at the comparative figures there........
I guess my aim was always to aim for very high bhp figures and its not through lack of money......its more that I wanted a car whose power I could use and not one simple mapped for RR days with a power band higher up........this is why I opted for the td05/06 - much to the disappointment of a few people I know.......
Before I make the next step (if I do) then I would love a test drive in your Wagon - your the only one with more power that has offered this...... to me that says something.......
I'll drop a mail later on
Steve
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/26/2004 8:11:25 PM]
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/26/2004 8:15:38 PM]
27 January 2004, 02:32 PM
#458
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You should get another one and have a twin exit, then you'll be over 500BHP
any info really, I just one of those sad people that wants to try to understand why some peoples cars are more powerfull than others, within reason.. hence the around 270-280 mark on a standard (ish) ECU
[Edited by paul_davies - 1/27/2004 2:35:12 PM]
any info really, I just one of those sad people that wants to try to understand why some peoples cars are more powerfull than others, within reason.. hence the around 270-280 mark on a standard (ish) ECU
[Edited by paul_davies - 1/27/2004 2:35:12 PM]
27 January 2004, 02:33 PM
#459
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PAUL PALMER & MAD MARK:
Unfortunately that wasnt me in the Teg but my mate Neil.
I have a civic VTI, but didnt bring it down, but i will be at G-Force getting it RR'd on the6th march.
Neil was interested in the scoobies and had quite a few people talking to hm about his motor. MMMMmmmmmm CTR..... but my civic will whoop its ***.
Unfortunately that wasnt me in the Teg but my mate Neil.
I have a civic VTI, but didnt bring it down, but i will be at G-Force getting it RR'd on the6th march.
Neil was interested in the scoobies and had quite a few people talking to hm about his motor. MMMMmmmmmm CTR..... but my civic will whoop its ***.
27 January 2004, 04:02 PM
#460
Paul,
I've only got my boost graph for the car running at 270. It's at home so you'll have to wait til this evening.
Basically it's in the range 0.85-0.95 bar spooling up at the same time as torque starts to rise - just under 3000 rpm IIRC (interestingly fluctuates a lot in that range between 3000 and 4000 rpm)
I've got the lamda graph from when the exhaust first went on. I'll also let you have the boost, torque and power graphs from that run. The really interesting part is that it's only around 2 weeks ago and was 240bhp/220lbft - with the explaination that there was much more back pressure on a new exhaust than now(sports cat + 3"-2.5" flange on the back-box).
I'd love for someone to be able to explain how on a standard ECU I was running 226bhp/210lbft and by changing the exhaust to a high flow turbo back with sports-cat I got to 272/260 (even if it must be due to inaccuracies of the rollers - but that's looking less likely). That's like 20%!!!
btw - spec of the exhaust if it helps:
APSWRX-HOE/R2 on APS site
And a nice page from G-Force's site:
I've only got my boost graph for the car running at 270. It's at home so you'll have to wait til this evening.
Basically it's in the range 0.85-0.95 bar spooling up at the same time as torque starts to rise - just under 3000 rpm IIRC (interestingly fluctuates a lot in that range between 3000 and 4000 rpm)
I've got the lamda graph from when the exhaust first went on. I'll also let you have the boost, torque and power graphs from that run. The really interesting part is that it's only around 2 weeks ago and was 240bhp/220lbft - with the explaination that there was much more back pressure on a new exhaust than now(sports cat + 3"-2.5" flange on the back-box).
I'd love for someone to be able to explain how on a standard ECU I was running 226bhp/210lbft and by changing the exhaust to a high flow turbo back with sports-cat I got to 272/260 (even if it must be due to inaccuracies of the rollers - but that's looking less likely). That's like 20%!!!
btw - spec of the exhaust if it helps:
APSWRX-HOE/R2 on APS site
And a nice page from G-Force's site:
What has been done to it?
27 January 2004, 06:02 PM
#464
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Thanks to all those who ran and spectated on Saturday. I hope it was a good day out and worth the trip. A list of power figures and graphs will follow shortly. Mark has the list at present, but we still have to convert dyno graph files - there aren't enough hours in the day. I hope everyone is happy with the way the cars are set-up and run. We want to make sure the figures are accurate as much as you do - which is why we do a few runs until we see 2 runs within 1 bhp. I'm not sure where our dyno's figures match up with other dynos, all I can say is that a genuine 450bhp car will run 450 here, and a car with less power won't.
Cheers all, look forward to the next one.
Steve, we're not unhappy to see you get good power figures on a small turbo - as there is more than one way to skin a cat. We can't run big boost to get big numbers on a standard Subaru engine, so we're fairly comfortable with 385 ib-ft at 1.6 bar, and 413 bhp at 1.35 bar (on pump fuel). The other bonus is no compressor surge. These numbers are very near our antipated safe limit for the 2.0 sti engine, and has been daily driven and thrashed down the strip a few times without any dramas. The days of big boost to achieve big power on Subaru engines are numbered.
I must have missed the question when you asked why we run 8 injectors. This is the fuel system to run the rotated mount 55 ib/min turbocharger. Should easliy run 500bhp at low boost and around 470-480 ib-ft. We just have to make sure there aren't any problems with the system - and running an 835cc 8 injector, parrallel rail system works out the same price as one set of 650 injectors and parrallel fuel rails - but is a lot easier to upgrade in the future.
Naturbo, the exhaust improvement makes me ask questions aswell. I would have expected a larger gain when the system was first installed. I think the power only increased by 15-16bhp, when we usually see an increase of around 25bhp before the system is run-in. We do get 50bhp increases with this exhaust in the sti cars (and basically re-map the ecu just to control boost spikes), so a big increase isn't unreasonable, but it makes me wonder if the original exhaust was too restictive compared to other '03/04 wrxs? Maybe a slight increase in turbo temp as a result of increased backpressure and a drop of 1-2 degrees of ingnition aswell. Who knows - it could be anything. 20% increase in power from an exhaust is very surprising, but I guess it does happen. It would have been interesting to see your car with mark's before and after the change.
Chris
Cheers all, look forward to the next one.
Steve, we're not unhappy to see you get good power figures on a small turbo - as there is more than one way to skin a cat. We can't run big boost to get big numbers on a standard Subaru engine, so we're fairly comfortable with 385 ib-ft at 1.6 bar, and 413 bhp at 1.35 bar (on pump fuel). The other bonus is no compressor surge. These numbers are very near our antipated safe limit for the 2.0 sti engine, and has been daily driven and thrashed down the strip a few times without any dramas. The days of big boost to achieve big power on Subaru engines are numbered.
I must have missed the question when you asked why we run 8 injectors. This is the fuel system to run the rotated mount 55 ib/min turbocharger. Should easliy run 500bhp at low boost and around 470-480 ib-ft. We just have to make sure there aren't any problems with the system - and running an 835cc 8 injector, parrallel rail system works out the same price as one set of 650 injectors and parrallel fuel rails - but is a lot easier to upgrade in the future.
Naturbo, the exhaust improvement makes me ask questions aswell. I would have expected a larger gain when the system was first installed. I think the power only increased by 15-16bhp, when we usually see an increase of around 25bhp before the system is run-in. We do get 50bhp increases with this exhaust in the sti cars (and basically re-map the ecu just to control boost spikes), so a big increase isn't unreasonable, but it makes me wonder if the original exhaust was too restictive compared to other '03/04 wrxs? Maybe a slight increase in turbo temp as a result of increased backpressure and a drop of 1-2 degrees of ingnition aswell. Who knows - it could be anything. 20% increase in power from an exhaust is very surprising, but I guess it does happen. It would have been interesting to see your car with mark's before and after the change.
Chris
27 January 2004, 06:45 PM
#465
Paul
I was just about to email my graphs to you, but it looks like a work addy, so I'll just put a link to them here:
Power/Torque before/after
Boost before/after
Lamda before/after
Power/Torque on Sat
Boost on Sat
I have no idea what turbo is fitted - any way I can check for you? It's an EU import but supposedly UK-spec if that helps.
And Chris - don't get me wrong, I'm well chuffed at the results - it's just that I think everyone's more than a little surprised by the difference it's made. Better than PPP for exhaust money (even if it is a pricey zaust 
)!
I was just about to email my graphs to you, but it looks like a work addy, so I'll just put a link to them here:
Power/Torque before/after
Boost before/after
Lamda before/after
Power/Torque on Sat
Boost on Sat
I have no idea what turbo is fitted - any way I can check for you? It's an EU import but supposedly UK-spec if that helps.
And Chris - don't get me wrong, I'm well chuffed at the results
- it's just that I think everyone's more than a little surprised by the difference it's made. Better than PPP for exhaust money (even if it is a pricey zaust )!
)
28 January 2004, 12:14 AM
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Andy - any time you wish to do the point to point challenge ... my car would wind it's own boost up! Anyway if your's reacts like that with a zaust - what will mine do with the same package???????? Hmmm
Interesting curves - torque seems to climb up a good 500rpm earlier than when first run!
Interesting curves - torque seems to climb up a good 500rpm earlier than when first run!
28 January 2004, 07:31 AM
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I'd love for someone to be able to explain how on a standard ECU I was running 226bhp/210lbft and by changing the exhaust to a high flow turbo back with sports-cat I got to 272/260 (even if it must be due to inaccuracies of the rollers - but that's looking less likely). That's like 20%!!!
28 January 2004, 09:30 AM
#469
Mark - the torque/boost ramp up is about the only expected thing on the graphs!
It should be the case that the turbo spins up circa 500rpm sooner by getting rid of the two cats behind it (even if I have replaced one of them...). That was one of the surprises immediately after the new exhaust was fitted - ramp up was only 200-300 rpm sooner...
And yes - full zaust and remap etc and your's should see an easy 300bhp!
It should be the case that the turbo spins up circa 500rpm sooner by getting rid of the two cats behind it (even if I have replaced one of them...). That was one of the surprises immediately after the new exhaust was fitted - ramp up was only 200-300 rpm sooner...
And yes - full zaust and remap etc and your's should see an easy 300bhp!
28 January 2004, 10:58 AM
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PaulPalmer: Hiya mate, Neils Teg has an AEM induction kit with the filter sitting in the front bumper and a spoon backbox only. Does sound sweet. I am putting him in touch with someone i know to build him a custom 2.25" Manifold and straight through centre pipe. She should sound awesome once thats done.
Anyway take care,
Marc
Anyway take care,
Marc
28 January 2004, 11:26 AM
#471
Chris
Still not sure why you have to run so many injectors? I was more questioning the fact that one guy on the day (who didnt run on the day - as he was having a minor fault resolved) had 8 injectors on a G Force engine spec of 400bhp - he'd run the previous day with readings around the 400bhp mark I think on an APS -SR40 (i.e not just a 500bhp+/480lbs set up.........)..........
Along with a few others - even if I do put a bigger Turbo on - I wont be using parallel fuel rails - you did comment that the injectors were to control fuel at idle? - but I dont have a problem on 4 740cc injectors - yes its richer but its not an issue at all (with an uprated fuel regulator and pump) - in fact if I run a 'real' 500bhp the fuel system is still adequate ...... maybe if I had a 2.5 litre with say 600bhp then Yes I no doubt would have to look at this sort of set up........ maybe its just an evolutionary step and others will be going down this route soon to ensure smooth fuel delivery without possible pressure constraints in the system..........
Anyhow you've got me thinking about Porsches now - I like the idea of modding a Porsche by over 100bhp for not a huge amount of outlay!
Re compressor surge this will be sorted in the very near future..... to allow full boost in the low 3000's - i.e. minimal lag
Anyhow its always interesting to see all the various RR's - from PS, PE, G Force and Well Lane as they are so wildy different..... Must say that I was amazed at the amount of graphs - the only place I've been to that gives Lamda readings!! - excellent
Perhaps we'll just have to wait for the ones that have had an engine Dyno to confirm the numbers only then will I be able to agree with the Cavalier statement that ''only a genuine 450bhp car will run 450 here, and a car with less power won't''
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/28/2004 1:50:22 PM]
Still not sure why you have to run so many injectors? I was more questioning the fact that one guy on the day (who didnt run on the day - as he was having a minor fault resolved) had 8 injectors on a G Force engine spec of 400bhp - he'd run the previous day with readings around the 400bhp mark I think on an APS -SR40 (i.e not just a 500bhp+/480lbs set up.........)..........
Along with a few others - even if I do put a bigger Turbo on - I wont be using parallel fuel rails - you did comment that the injectors were to control fuel at idle? - but I dont have a problem on 4 740cc injectors - yes its richer but its not an issue at all (with an uprated fuel regulator and pump) - in fact if I run a 'real' 500bhp the fuel system is still adequate ...... maybe if I had a 2.5 litre with say 600bhp then Yes I no doubt would have to look at this sort of set up........ maybe its just an evolutionary step and others will be going down this route soon to ensure smooth fuel delivery without possible pressure constraints in the system..........
Anyhow you've got me thinking about Porsches now - I like the idea of modding a Porsche by over 100bhp for not a huge amount of outlay!
Re compressor surge this will be sorted in the very near future..... to allow full boost in the low 3000's - i.e. minimal lag
Anyhow its always interesting to see all the various RR's - from PS, PE, G Force and Well Lane as they are so wildy different..... Must say that I was amazed at the amount of graphs - the only place I've been to that gives Lamda readings!! - excellent
Perhaps we'll just have to wait for the ones that have had an engine Dyno to confirm the numbers only then will I be able to agree with the Cavalier statement that ''only a genuine 450bhp car will run 450 here, and a car with less power won't''
[Edited by Fangoria - 1/28/2004 1:50:22 PM]
28 January 2004, 02:21 PM
#473
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Steve,
The 400bhp STi 8 that was there but not running had just been finished on Friday (its a 5 day job for those who are curious). For those that opt for this level we like to tweak the map to account for individual driving styles. I change down into roundabouts for example - some people don't. This means the idle control has to be adjusted. So if the car is driven and set-up with me driving we don't have a problem, and as soon as the owner drives the car they might complain about stalling problems.
Another reason it didn't run is that the final map hasn't been finished. Exhaust systems have to be run-in - a couple of previous threads will explain why. The car is due back in a week or so after a few hundred miles to finish the mapping. Its 390 at the moment, but will produce similar numbers to the STi 7 in a week or so.
One improtant consideration for the twin injector system is the potential to run race fuels. Race fuel has a higher calorific value, but less density than pump fuel. So in order to achieve a similar afr, you have to flow more race fuel than you would need to with pump fuel. If you have a system sized for pump fuel, then want to run race fuel (10 of the best for example) your mixture will run lean (regardless of mapping changes) and potentially damage the engine. The 400bhp cars with 8 injectors may seem too much, but it is cheaper than a single set of 650cc injectors, and will easily cope with a race fuel change which is worth around 10% more power.
If someone is game enough to run a 400bhp new-age car without parrallel rails I will be most interested to see how long it takes for the left hand bank to go pop.
There are always variations available to achieve the same results. This package is one solution. There may be a couple of components used which some may see as overkill, but we can take a 265bhp standard STi 7 or 8 and deliver a reliable 400bhp in a few days -
while a number of other people seem to be struggling to make 380bhp after spending months on the job. Just a thought.
The 400bhp STi 8 that was there but not running had just been finished on Friday (its a 5 day job for those who are curious). For those that opt for this level we like to tweak the map to account for individual driving styles. I change down into roundabouts for example - some people don't. This means the idle control has to be adjusted. So if the car is driven and set-up with me driving we don't have a problem, and as soon as the owner drives the car they might complain about stalling problems.
Another reason it didn't run is that the final map hasn't been finished. Exhaust systems have to be run-in - a couple of previous threads will explain why. The car is due back in a week or so after a few hundred miles to finish the mapping. Its 390 at the moment, but will produce similar numbers to the STi 7 in a week or so.
One improtant consideration for the twin injector system is the potential to run race fuels. Race fuel has a higher calorific value, but less density than pump fuel. So in order to achieve a similar afr, you have to flow more race fuel than you would need to with pump fuel. If you have a system sized for pump fuel, then want to run race fuel (10 of the best for example) your mixture will run lean (regardless of mapping changes) and potentially damage the engine. The 400bhp cars with 8 injectors may seem too much, but it is cheaper than a single set of 650cc injectors, and will easily cope with a race fuel change which is worth around 10% more power.
If someone is game enough to run a 400bhp new-age car without parrallel rails I will be most interested to see how long it takes for the left hand bank to go pop.
There are always variations available to achieve the same results. This package is one solution. There may be a couple of components used which some may see as overkill, but we can take a 265bhp standard STi 7 or 8 and deliver a reliable 400bhp in a few days -
while a number of other people seem to be struggling to make 380bhp after spending months on the job. Just a thought.
28 January 2004, 02:57 PM
#474
Chris
Ok, interesting comments. I didnt realise that there was such a problem with the new age cars. I'm sure I know of at least one that is running in excess of a 'real' 450 without parallel fuel rails....... but as they are newer we dont yet have the history
Re the stalling - have had this problem in the past - but I guess with plenty of adjusting this is just not a problem (dont think a different driver would be any different in my car.....) - then again I've had about 50 hrs+ of mapping on mine over the years so I have a slight advantage in that respect
Dont want you to think I'm necessarily getting at your outfit with the questions - I'm just generally curious...... maybe its beacuse I've not seen it in practice but have heard of this happening......
Re the race fuel - yes I'm aware of this - in any event you'd have to have a remap anyway so you'd notice the afr's......... well a good mapper would......... people have noticed this taking the cheap option of Meths as an octane booster substitute and also you have to adjust the map when the Methanol is used in a water injection set up (although I just use 100% water)....... but of course you have to adjust the map to compensate for the water......
The mapping is one of the most important considerations but then you have to have optimal parts as well!!.........
Ok, interesting comments. I didnt realise that there was such a problem with the new age cars. I'm sure I know of at least one that is running in excess of a 'real' 450 without parallel fuel rails....... but as they are newer we dont yet have the history
Re the stalling - have had this problem in the past - but I guess with plenty of adjusting this is just not a problem (dont think a different driver would be any different in my car.....) - then again I've had about 50 hrs+ of mapping on mine over the years so I have a slight advantage in that respect
Dont want you to think I'm necessarily getting at your outfit with the questions - I'm just generally curious...... maybe its beacuse I've not seen it in practice but have heard of this happening......
Re the race fuel - yes I'm aware of this - in any event you'd have to have a remap anyway so you'd notice the afr's......... well a good mapper would......... people have noticed this taking the cheap option of Meths as an octane booster substitute and also you have to adjust the map when the Methanol is used in a water injection set up (although I just use 100% water)....... but of course you have to adjust the map to compensate for the water......
The mapping is one of the most important considerations but then you have to have optimal parts as well!!.........
28 January 2004, 04:06 PM
#475
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Steve,
We'd like to be as transparent as possible. There is a fair bit of information that is kept to ourselves for obvious reasons, but we hope to help people understand where power comes from and why things are sometimes done a certain way. In the end it should help people make an informed decision when it comes to choosing which direction and which parts to use. Knowledge is power.
A 419bhp classic wrx is not an easy feat - it also makes for an awesomely quick car - nice one.
If you're thinking of a 996 turbo - around 5k and 4 days is all it takes to add 100bhp. A 993 turbo is around 8k (as it needs new turbos). We're about to sell our GT2, but we usually have a demo car of some description to give you an idea of what's available. Give me a call when you get your hands on one.
Chris
We'd like to be as transparent as possible. There is a fair bit of information that is kept to ourselves for obvious reasons, but we hope to help people understand where power comes from and why things are sometimes done a certain way. In the end it should help people make an informed decision when it comes to choosing which direction and which parts to use. Knowledge is power.
A 419bhp classic wrx is not an easy feat - it also makes for an awesomely quick car - nice one.
If you're thinking of a 996 turbo - around 5k and 4 days is all it takes to add 100bhp. A 993 turbo is around 8k (as it needs new turbos). We're about to sell our GT2, but we usually have a demo car of some description to give you an idea of what's available. Give me a call when you get your hands on one.
Chris
28 January 2004, 10:55 PM
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Andy - even more likely to get 300bhp now that the girlfriend has approved the purchase of an STi8 later on in the year .... Heh Heh Heh
