Blow Dog

It does seem like the massive push that we saw from the Japanese in the late 80's early 90's has suddenly run out of energy.
I blame it totally on their efforts to Americanise their cars, designs and philosophies. The 350Z and RX8 are perfect examples of toned down, Audi TT'esque designs intended for the American market entirely.

Also love the ways the moderators delete my post, yet Pepper is given royalty status - remarkable

Cem

Mycroft

It has and you have named the cause... exactly... and the Americanisation started with my car and its saloon counterpart the LS400... a less than glorious 'accolade' that has to pinned to it, sadly, these cars were too successful in the States... and so the sights were set in making money there... there is more money in Big car sales and the Lexus brand scored a direct hit... it helped raise the profile of the 'lesser' Toyota models...
The Soarer over there just stormed the place... but the Japanese are not fools... they sent a car that was as different from the JDM car as could be managed economically... the spec was so perfectly matched to the market that frankly in marketing terms Toyota must have thought all their Birthdays cam all at once...

The higher profile helped sales of the MKIV Supra... the other money maker... in fact the MKIV made them a fortune... and built a cult following... the big wing and the Aero-top option gave the MKIV a memorable and very 'in your face' presence...

No SC (as the US car was called) had the Tokico TEMS susp. system... nor are any Air Sprung, and no Active... the car was the base model in the States with 'special' soft springs and awful shockers... yet this 'low spec' motor sold as fast as they could make them to that spec. at A22... they actually made money from the Soarer in the States, again helping to balance the books. They were all V8s' or NA 3ltrs... the US never got the Twin Turbo...

Someone on here mentioned he drove a Soarer (SC) in the States and it was horrible... he was right... it is not nice... the car is 'too Americanised' for someone who has driven the JDM Twin Turbo, but compared to the Home grown stuff it was amazingly good for the time it is even now... a sort of softened Euro-ride if you can imagine that.





[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 10:22:43 AM]

Redkop

Cem what post???

Blow Dog

Redkop,

I openly criticised a few people for being the reason padlocks go on. It was right before my post about NSX's on page 12.

Never mind....

Cem

Redkop

Don't think I saw that.

Adam M

Don't want to change track of this thread, but can people please stop having a go or assuming that mycroft is trying to annoy people. I can see nothing wrong with the way this thread was started and pretty much every comment mycroft has made.

It has been very interesting reading for me.

I would appreciate having the merits of a straight six explained to me over say a flat six or a veesix. Never did understand why it made a difference.

I would also like to hear mycroft's opinion on the 2.0 litre straight four in the mr2.

While I know that straight fours are inherently hateful, having borrowed pats mr2 turbo, I have fallen in love with the engine. Apparently its geometry is near on ideal. It is incredibly responsive and has low down torque akin to a higher compression normally aspirated engine.

It may not have primary and secondary balance but behind the wheel of a car powered by one, it still feels great.

I am saddened by the anti V8ness. I know you don't like ferraris, but the sound from a 355 in my mind is unrivalled by any engine, despite my huge appreciation for the skyline at full chat.


edited because Cem thinks people will think I am dyslexic when my problem is my mind outrunning my fingers.

[Edited by Adam M - 5/14/2003 12:04:15 PM]

Pepper

I managed to find Ian Callum's book on the internet last night, in PDF format (I can email it to anyone who's interested).

Funnily enough, there's not a single reference to the Soarer there, nor any reference to Japanese cars at all.

In fact, at the time, I was in the chatroom with Mycroft - unfortunately he had nothing to say on the matter

Mycroft

Adam.. don't get me wrong... I like V8s... just not as much as straight 6s'...

Single plane V8s' have an awesome tingly sound... a buzz-saw scraping across a blackboard...

The addition of some simple webbing/CB can bring a V8 of certain designs into perfect balance... and are great...

We did a huge rundown of engine tech. on the old Soarer forum... sadly lost to the ether... could start another... but I think that will have to be on the GTR if anywhere, simply as the flow of the technical info needs as little distraction as possible... I like to involve a little metallurgy I think it makes people more 'sympathetic' to the duress the Block/Head/Crank works under... mass and apparent weight also have a bearing(sic) in this...

Mycroft

This will be the only post I will make directly to you Pepper...

I have on here posted word for word the extract from Ian callums book...

You should perhaps have read my post and then used the search to find the relevent section in there.

Please append the link to the PDF file as I do not have his book in that form and it contains many things of great value...

I have only ever found the forward (in precis'd form) on the net and to have the entire book in PDF is a find and a half... in fact the truth be told it is the only reason for me even acknowledging your existence...

The link would benefit us all in this discussion.

Pepper

FYI Mycroft, I had a good chat with a SN moderator last night and have agreed to stop all the insults and name calling. However, I am still interested in the subject matter and tend to disagree with a lot of your stuff, so I will still post on here.

I will put the PDF on the web somewhere and post a link shortly - I had to register with the site I found it from before downloading.

Perhaps you could tell us which part of the book you have directly quoted....?

dba

Yaris is a great bit of design imo

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Mycroft, does that include Wacko the Bucolic homeboy, cos I kinda like it !

Mycroft

Wacko.. could you drag the thing I said and hit me with it... that way I'll get the right 'bit'.


[Edited by Mycroft - 5/14/2003 9:09:48 PM]

Mycroft

One of the greatest problems facing designers in the late 80's was the new legislation concerning crash worthiness... to get this almost all the cars that were due for release in the early 90's were rather frumpy, ugly things... the technology to design a monocoque that was both svelte and strong was not about... we didn't have the ability/technology to design such things at that time... so all the 'new generation' of 90's sportscars looked really grim...

Toyota did not 're-write' the book, they made it possible for all designers to go back to the sexy lines... they all needed the technology to make it work, that technology first saw the light of day in just one car... the Soarer... from the special door hinges to isolated Suspension/ARB to the Adjustable Damping to multiple network of ECUs' all had their debut in this car...

As to the design effect on a whole generation of cars... then I suggest some of you read Ian Callums book on design... you will be surprised how his thoughts reflect my own... he designed the DB7.

I have never hidden my contempt for Japanese car design... it is the sub-text of almost all my posts everywhere... the Soarer is the REAL exception... it really did allow us to have not the frumpy, humpty monsters that were coming out of Italy ['Il Monstro' that Alfa Romeo 'joke' was better looking than the original DB7 FFS] but instead designers could go back to smooth lines and sexy curves... well... all those except the Japanese themselves who for the most part still churned out ugly monsters... they still do.

[Edited by Mycroft - 5/8/2003 1:28:33 AM]

Vlad the Impaler

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to the design effect on a whole generation of cars... then I suggest some of you read Ian Callums book on design... you will be surprised how his thoughts reflect my own... he designed the DB7.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fantastic!

Quote of the day!!!

Claudius - are you Mycroft's bitch or sommat

You seem to pop up extolling his virtues on every post.....

Mycroft - Ian Callum's ideas reflect your own...get real...

I suspect your ideas reflect his....and there is a REAL difference in the ordering of that comment.

Vlad

[Edited by Vlad the Impaler - 5/8/2003 11:26:21 AM]

Claudius

I love the finesse with which you word your messages ; I doubt, however, that a lot of people here appreciate it...

[Edited by Claudius - 5/8/2003 5:31:39 PM]

Tractor

Didn't say anything about it Claude cos by the time I got here, you already had...

Oh dear oh dear Mycroft, you simply aren't capable of banter are you? Its either an 'I'm so much smarter, funnier and better informed than all of YOU!!!!' speach, or 'You're dumb, you smell, and your car is a bunch or ****, but only people as 'cool' as me can appreciate it' diatribe....

A little lesson for you if you don't a. want people to think you are a complete **** (possibly too late for that one...) or b. don't want to make enemies (hmm, same here methinks) - when people have a joke with you, respond in KIND...... By which I mean in the same vein, rather than 'nicely' before you have to go and consult your 'My First Dictionary'.

I know you want people to like you, it shines through all your posts. So I'll give it a go:

'Mycroft, don't worry, Mummy still loves you even though you're a bit of a disappointment to her. She only wishes you didn't drive about in that ridiculous car.....'

And back on thread.... sorry Redkop, couldn't resist a wee riposte. Subaru have just hired that Zapatinas guy, and considering Alfas are great looking cars, lets have a see what he comes up with.

Edited for a typo..


[Edited by Tractor - 5/8/2003 7:27:33 PM]

Mycroft

###
Mycroft
How the F**k can you say the Soarer influenced the design of the Aston/XK8 , if you look at them the side profile is allmost identical to a Supra , i know you have a bee in your bonnet about these but they are a stunning looking car in a chest wiggy sort of way , having seen a couple of soarers at the weekend i will concede they are an ok loolking car but they are nothing special which is fine if you want to slip around in a fast non descript car (bit like an automotive John Major) its the old adage 'walk quietly but carry a big stick'but if ive spent £10,000+++ on a car i WANT people to look /point whatever. Im sorry the soarer is a competent car but i doubt very much that it has ever influenced very much at all
###

It is like the Astons very ugly [hatch]hump-backed 3rd Cousin twice removed... as to the Soarer/DB7 design debate, read Ian Callums book, then return with an apology.


###
Apart from the front end, the Soarers in the beginning of this thread look almost identical to the Nissan 200SX (or the other way round depending on which was designed first, who cares anyway ). Try it, put your hand over the front end on the pic of the red one for example and the similarity is uncanny.
###

Now, when your family look at you do they say...
'Oooh, Doesn't his Father look like little Draco'...
nah they say...
'Oooh, Doesn't little Draco take after his Father'...
They get the antecedence right...
the correct phrase you are searching for is...
'Damn, that 200sx really is a low-rent version of the Soarer'
Which would be entirely correct and possibly a 'first' for you.


###
Myshaft,.....
###

Don't talk ****... hahaha









[Edited by Mycroft - 5/8/2003 10:55:24 PM]

Mycroft

###
Why would I need to, Stevie Wonder could pick the best one. Get your head out of your **** man.
###

So you are that man who judges a book by its' cover... always wanted to meet that fool... how you doing?

Have you noticed something... I never comment on any car unless I have driven it except about its' aesthetics/design... I compare cars by DRIVING them.

Each to their own I suppose.





[Edited by Mycroft - 5/9/2003 2:06:21 PM]

Mycroft

###
Its a car ffs, whats all the mission cr4p,
###
I'm on no mission... I want you to 'move over' that's all.


###
I cant imagine any real international multi millionaire love god man of mystery being all that arsed about aging Japanese cars that they have to go on about it on every bulletin board in the free world, maybe if you care about them so much you should open a sanctury for them to protect injured ones and nurse them back to health, it could be called Mycroft's Donkey Sanctuary.
###

You need to keep off the drugs mate... ''international multi millionaire love god man of mystery'' hahahahahahahahaha ... it's me but how did you know?... yeaaaah baby!

###
As for the peasant thing, what are you on about, we are not in fuedal times and you are not lord of the manor, you are just another bloke driving around in a motor vehicle, you have no more right to the road than anybody else who pays road tax.
###

But you all sound like 'bucolic home boys' I can't help but look down on some of you...



[Edited by Mycroft - 5/9/2003 2:38:51 PM]

camk

Mycroft,
Maybe the Toyota has pixies in the bodywork who change bulbs overnight, so you never know.....BTW as ever you did not answer my question , why no Toyota Soarer for Europe ? Did they see an issue in marketing or sales ?

[Edited by camk - 5/9/2003 3:47:04 PM]

camk

it looks very long, is that just the picture ? The blue colour om the first page looks better IMHO.

[Edited by camk - 5/9/2003 4:28:22 PM]

Pepper

PMSL @ that picture, the only one he's got of his own car, and a different colour every time!

Pathetic.

EDIT: ...and not even a flattering picture of a Soarer. LOL

[Edited by Pepper - 5/9/2003 4:46:31 PM]

Kosy

iTrader: (2)

interesting read.........


[Edited by Kosy - 5/9/2003 5:52:07 PM]

Mycroft

###
On Top Gear just now, Clarkson and Vinny Jones commenting on a Lexus....
###
Enjoy TV do you, entertainment for morons... so you should be well satisfied... Now Clarkson and a thick ex-footballer are your heros' are they... how excellent... I believe the Clarkson chimp called the Supra a 'Joke Supercar'... still think the sun shines out his ahse?...

###
Clarkson "THE most boring car on the planet"
###
The Only lexus worth buying is the Soarer... like I keep telling you almost every other jap car is sh!te...

###
Jones "Dont you have to be over 60 to buy one of those?!"
###
I do like intellectuals... don't you?

###
Very funny.!
###
It must be great to be to be so easily amused. But strangely I don't envy you.



[Edited by Mycroft - 5/11/2003 9:13:07 PM]

Mycroft

Someone asked what my car looks like now... well this pic below is the closest I can find without actually posting my car... if you see this [in a different colour] in your mirror then get out of my way...

[img]
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/183144/runner4.jpg
[/img]

As you can see this model also carries the ground-effect panels as mine does, the side wings and the channels under the car are all there... at 140mph this car, as mine does, generates 250kgs of down force and only one subtle boot spoiler... even my side wings [strakes] are body colour...

[Edited by Mycroft - 5/11/2003 10:32:25 PM]

Mycroft

Please show me... from any source... anyone who advocates a car that can 150+mph not generating a seriously positive downforce...

250kgs is about right at 140mph.. because at 190mph the Soarer is back to 'just' positive and at 200mph+ you need to fit the 'tri-wing' to keep her on the deck....

[Edited by Mycroft - 5/11/2003 11:26:52 PM]

MooseRacer

Wings are only one way of producing downforce though....

What is the distribution of downforce like on the Soarer (as above)?

[Edited by MooseRacer - 5/11/2003 11:45:26 PM]

Mycroft

UK look-a-likes.
DB7
XKR

Italian look-a-like.
Maserati GT

American look-a-like.
Dodge Viper
Camaro Z28
http://www.victoryperformance.com/ri...il.cfm?ride=39



[Edited by Mycroft - 5/12/2003 1:34:49 AM]

MooseRacer

LOL @ davyboy

Obviously, he's come home and posted because mr2's post deserved a reply from an all round architect, sorry intellect, such as he

[Edited by MooseRacer - 5/12/2003 9:21:42 AM]