TVR Gary

Well i got an STI 8 with about 300BHP and that feels faster than yours does so ner ner ner ner ner .......laffing me head off now .....Sorry guys didnt mean to turn this into a yours is faster than mine, mines bigger than yours debate. iwas just interested thats all.

Anyway love it or hate it MY SCOOP IS DEF BIGgER THAN YOURS....hahaha

Toonman1

Performance figures from the first UK tests in Autocar:

----------------------------------0-60---0-100---30-70(through gears)---30-50(2nd)---70-90(4th)---Top Speed

Classic (06/04/94)------------5.8-----18.7------------6.6----------------------2.4-------------7.5-----------137mph

WRX (25/10/00)---------------5.7---- 16.9------------5.8----------------------2.6-------------6.0-----------141mph

I know other mags have achieved faster AND slower times for both cars, but at least these figures offer a degree of consistency. I also know that the cars get quicker as the miles go on, and Autocar later had a long term test car that pulled 60 in 5.4 secs, but what's good for the Classic, is also good for the WRX. My car is faster now at 14.5K than it was when the PPP was fitted at 5K.

Rasher

Last of the 'Classics' had 215BHP, not 208BHP as indicated with Autocars test results therefore:
0-60=5.4secs.................0-60=6.0secs
0-100=14.6secs 'Classic'.....0-100=18.3secs WRX
Evo Magazine

[Edited by Rasher - 4/25/2003 11:03:09 AM]

[Edited by Rasher - 4/25/2003 11:05:45 AM]

[Edited by Rasher - 4/25/2003 11:06:46 AM]

Toonman1

I did say they were the FIRST UK road tests of each model Rasher, and that's why I used them. Both my '94 and '96 were 208bhp models(although the '96MY had slightly more torque). My '98 was a 211bhp as standard. Most of course kick out more than the stated BHP anyway, but that also goes for the 01/02 WRX. However, when people say the Classic is faster, remember there are Classics and Classics, and a lot of 208bhp Classics around...

I'll say (again), is my 02 WRX is (IMO), a much better car than my '94, '96 and lightly modded 245bhp '98. Each was an excellent car, and together they were trouble free for a combined 155,000 miles. Life (and the car) moves on however.

Cheers

Rasher

horses for courses as they say

rapiddescent

with regard to wagons/5drs

maybe it is just me - but although the bugeye WRX wagon is a little heavier than the classic turbo2000 5dr - I beleive the my01 is faster along a twisty road.

probably due to the standard 17" wheels and wider tyres plus better braking. I also found that the *standard* 5dr classic had silly understeer compared to the standard wrx wagon bugeye.

put them in a straight line and the classic is probably a little faster.

am going to add PPP to my wrx wagon - convinced by the evo article.

rd

chrisp

Why do people think by adding 150kgs suddenly make a car go quicker

If you have 5 people in your car is it quicker than you in on your own ??. Think about it here you are EVO mag figures and shows a classic is still quicker than a PPP MY01 so what do think its going to a standard one .

Classic 1235kgs 215bhp 0-60 (5.4) 0-100( 14.6).

UK300 PPP 1385kgs 241bhp 0-60 (5.8), 0-100 (16.6).

Its already been mentioned power to weight, just watch an F1 race and see how much quicker a car is on low tanks than after a fuel stop.

Rasher

Quite

Toonman1

Autocar - std WRX 215bhp test: 0-60 = 5.7/0-100 = 16.9

Maybe there was something wrong with the UK300 PPP was having an "off" day? Maybe it was tested in adverse weather conditions? Who knows...?

Anyway, as someone who's owned a UK Impreza Turbo/WRX for 9 years, 2 weeks and 4 days, I'm happy (very happy), with my poor, ugly, ever so "slow", WRX...

Cheers!

bluto22b

Saxo Boy said : How do YOU know ? I have owned BOTH and I would say my standard MY02 Wagon is as fast as the MY98 I owned a few years ago. The MY02 handles better, has more grip, especially on tight sweepers and just because of its refinement all the motoring journo's "feel" it is slower. Its all about power delivery and the MY02 is SMOOTHER. Thats why it FEELS slower. Its actually just as fast day to day point to point. Unless you have owned both models I don't think you can comment, I suggest you refrain from reading the motoring press which just try to sell magazines and not cars therefore love to be controversial.......Blutes

chrisp

blutes can you tell me the power to weight ratio of an my98 and an my02 ?

[Edited by chrisp - 4/25/2003 8:12:01 PM]

bluto22b

I think you will find the Power to weight ratio of a 208bhp MY98 will be 161 bhp/tonne and a MY02 wagon will be 155 bhp/tonne. If you can tell me that YOU can feel the difference between the two I will go and eat two straw hats topped with picalilli....Blutes

Incidently a PPP wagon would be around 177, enough to eat a standard "classic"

rapiddescent

I've owned both the classic 5dr and the wrx wagon. It is not all to do with power to weight. The first upgrade to go faster on track are usually better brakes - well before power mods.

I can't speak for the MY02 - but the bugeye had massive improvments in the front end suspension and braking so that tackling a twisty road it just seemed faster. the classic in standard form just wanted to understeer - especially in a third gear mid revs tightish scenario.

A classic with suspension mods and better braking/wheel package is an awesome car though. much better and I don't deny it.

Power to weight is great at santa pod. means a lot less on the Dunfermline - Powmill - Glendevon - Auchterarder high road. Boy is that a good stretch of road. This is where the bugeye surprised me because the wheels actually stayed on the ground whereas the classic had to be fought a little. Especially heading north just past Knockhill race circuit where there used to be stutter bumps into a shallow off camber right hander.

I save 120 kg on track by removing most things out of the car :-) and not having breakfast!!!

rd

chrisp

Okay assuming metric bhp/1000kgs

MY98 1235kgs and 208bhp = 208/1.235 = 168bhp/1000kgs
MY02 1385kgs and 215bhp = 215/1.385 = 155bhp/1000kgs
MY02 PPP 1385kgs and 241bhp = 241/1.385 = 174bhp/1000kgs

So if a standard MY02 is 13bhp less than a classic and feels as quick and a classic is 6bhp less than an MY01 PPP then a classic must feel as quick as a PPP MY01, yes ?. So why bother to PPP the car ??? As an MY02 and MY02 PPP must feel the same ?

bluto22b

Crisp, its more to do with power delivery and TORQUE. A PPP'd car wether it be classic or New model will roast any standard car midrange owing to the masses of torque (thats the twisting action available). Picture this, I was following a friend in his Golf PD 150 a few months ago (power to weight ratio not in the same league as Impreza Turbo let alone same division) and guess what ? He actually pulled some distance from me at first, the reason ? TORQUE. There is no substitute. Better measure of pulling power than BHP. Gives everyday driveability. And the MY02 actually delivers Torque lower down the rev range than a classic this coupled with better handling......oh, must I go on....Blutes

bluto22b

By the way a PPP gives 242 BHP and 261 Lb/ft

scooby_jim

Blutes you have hit the nail on the head, BHP is NOT the be-all and end-all!. I was fishing for some nibbles earlier as well as trying to make a semi-serious point as you have

dba

how much more torque does a PPPed MY02 have over a standard MY98?

chrisp

Okay lets torque

MY98 1235kgs and 214lb/ft = 214/1.235 = 173/1000kgs
MY02 1385kgs and 215lb/ft = 215/1.385 = 155/1000kgs
MY02 PPP 1385kgs and 261lb/ft = 241/1.385 = 188/1000kgs

Just for comparison and to see how things have moved on :

MY99 PPP 1235kgs and 258lb/ft = 258/1.235 = 209/1000kgs

Cant remember the exact figure torque figure for the 98 PPP but I remember it was at least 240lb/ft

1235kgs and 240lb/ft = 240/1.235 = 194/1000kgs


[Edited by chrisp - 4/25/2003 10:25:29 PM]

dba

sooooooooooooo,Blutes hasn't hit the nail on the head then?

chrisp

I am not trying to score any points as whats the point and what o I win , its just I see a lot of comments like I swapped my MY<insert classic year> for an MY<insert new shape/very new shape> and its much quicker.

The new age car is more solid and I should hope so for an extra 150/160kgs. I also so hope that the handling should improve with newer diffs, and also suspension, braking technology.

BUT in terms of straight line stuff a heavier car with the same power/torque and similar ratios is going to be slower. Simple physics really.

The question at the start of the thread was :

"Is a classic that much quicker than a new age" and like for like standard versus standard and PPP versus PPP the answer has to be yes it is quicker in sheer straight line performance.



[Edited by chrisp - 4/25/2003 10:43:17 PM]

john banks

I don't see anything remarkably different about the new age torque curves other than the twin scroll JDM STi.

chrisp

correct me if I am wrong John but looking at a few figures for Uk imprezas it seems max torque is at about 4,000rpm and max power around 5,600. The PPP cars seem to be 500rpm less (3,500) for max torque and 500 rpm more (6,100) for their max power.

[Edited by chrisp - 4/25/2003 10:56:36 PM]

john banks

They all seem to be torque at 3500-4000 and power 5500-6000 approx. Weight is far more noticeable than 1 lbft differences in peak torque arriving less than 500 RPM earlier. Area under the curve is very similar which matters far more than the actual point where the torque peaks. In addition Subaru use the same figures for different ECUs which patently make different levels of power and torque.

Toonman1

"its just I see a lot of comments like I swapped my MY<insert classic year> for an MY<insert new shape/very new shape> and its much quicker"

It always seems to be the Classic owners that keep saying the WRX is slower. God help them when they want to move on to newer cars. Reliable though Scoobs generally are, they won't go on for ever. What'll folk buy? Civic Type Rs, and get bored whilst they wait for the 6K power band to arrive? Tried one yesterday; not impressed. Wife's going for a S/H WRX 5 door or a new GX Sportshatch.

stephen emery

F off. if u have no money u get an old one . if u have money u get a new one.


steve

Toonman1

You miss the point Steve, and don't be abusive.

stephen emery

sorry p@ssed

stephen emery

my 01 cost 35k and faster than my98 but not as much feel

so my01 great

steve

ps still p@ssed

[Edited by stephen emery - 4/26/2003 1:02:06 AM]

Toonman1

Accepted; no probs.