Stan, thats what bugged me at well lane 3. I was the 1st to run with a FMIC and they did not even change the fan to accomodate it.

That is until we made them stop and aim it at the FMIC. They then did not change it back for the next car.

TBH, i could fart and creat more air than the fan at well lane produces. In fact if you stood behind the fan, there seemed to be more air flow towards the rear than to the front and towards the car.

Thought Rich was going to get them to address it

 

I bet the drive on the way up didnt help!

Tell you what Dave.

I'll take it easy on the way up next week

 

I didnt see you pulling infront of my car at any point??

I did like you entrance to the petrol station, and the move round the bus that both cars did was

 

You seem to be well informed

That figure seems to be pretty well spot on .....

.....@4,000rpm

.........@the wheels

Trout

[Edited by Trout - 1/28/2003 5:29:23 PM]

 

If the fan was such an issue then why did everyone else with a top mount fair ok?

examples:

SteveF - P1 top mount - 312bhp (last time he got 297 with and has only changed his downpipe from closed neck to open neck 3")

Simon Forey - STi7PPP top mount - 311bhp (last time standard 272bhp)

Moving a fan down 6 inches isn't going to lose you 80bhp!

Looking at your graph Stan, it looks like the mapping is the issue here or something else car related. It's the same playing field for everyone and not all their results were bad. At 3500rpm you are developing 82bhp, SteveF's P1 with just filter and induction is developing 160bhp at this point. I've compared all the graphs from people on the day and yours is very disproportionate to the mods done/figures expected, which tends to suggest an issue with the car. I noticed that you ran the car for ages stationary before the run (like 20+ minutes at well above idle) which wouldn't help.

For the most part I did make sure the fan was moved for people with front mounts but maybe on some occasions I missed it, so sorry for that, but on a day when upwards of 50 people all want to talk to you, sometimes it's hard to do everything. I try to be sociable on these occasions and speak to everyone, especially those who have travelled and unfortunately it means sometimes I get caught up.

I'll have a word with Well Lane again for the next session to make sure they adjust the fan when they should.

Cheers

Rich

 

Rich,

Sorry mate, but IMHO I think you are incorrect.

The P1 does have limited ambient air temperature compensation based on a sensor at the front of the air box - as do all recent cars. So there is ambient temperature compensation - for the LINK it adjusts fuel not ignition, and I think the JECS is the same.

Also the P1 has a far more efficent intercooler than the one that is on Stans car.

In this scenario, with a Jecs or Link ECU - the increased charge temp will increase det which will pull a little timing out - NUT not necessarily a huge amount. Power may be down 10-30bhp.

AFAIK the Gems has charge temp compensation based on a sensor after the intercooler (or in it) - with an ignition compensation map. In this circumstance - a tuner who maps for safety may well pull 6-8degs or more of advance - which could easily lose the car 80bhp at the top end.

There may well be other issues with Stans car - certainly at the boost level he is running the intercooler will be struggling to acheive appropriate charge temps anyway - on a set of rollers with a poor fan, then charge temps could easily be 80-100deg.

IMHO the tuner has mapped a lot of safety into the charge temp compensation (and rightly so) and this could cause Stans car to pretty much die above 6krpm.

In terms of comparing these fans - the fan at Well Lane really is quite ineffective comapared to Power Engineering (where they have two very powerful fans) or SAS (where they have three very powerful that could actually knock you over!!!).

Trout

PS Edited to add - not having a go at you Rich - it is a great fun day out - however people are spending a lot of money on these cars tuning them to the limit - and poor cooling not only reduces power readings but can also put these cars at risk due to heat soak. I am certain Well Lane fully understand that as the power of our cars has increased so significantly that to get a decent fan and to resurface the rollers would be a good investment to keep us coming back for more.

[Edited by Trout - 1/28/2003 5:48:54 PM]

 

Trout - This thread is now in my favourites for dragging out at WL5

Andy

 

IIRC Steve S pulls 0.2 degrees timing for every 1.0 degree C above 40C charge temperature.
So if running 80C it could have typically pulled 8 degrees. If he has already mapped safely then it's no wonder it fell flat really !

I recall J Banks's uprated TMIC outlet temp reached mid 90's C at Star once with a crap top mount fan.

As trout stated, the jecs would just retard the minimum amount to avoid det (if it is able to)

Andy

 

I think the fan at WL is pathetic. As Trout well knows, the fan setup at SAS in andover is about as big and powerful as you can get. But they are used to 600hp skylines which need a lot cooling just for the engine coolant.

I also agree with what Trout has said wrt to people putting a lot of effort in to their cars in general. Looking at the price of petrol for the likes of Stan and indeed myself if I decided to partake, spending £40 instead of £25 is nothing if it means getting a decent fan setup and gripped rollers.

The setup as a whole at SAS (Tuning Japanese) seemed more professional. They checked the oil, wore det cans and stopped any detting cars. Measured intake temp, oil temp and boost, plotting the boost on the curves.

I do feel that if the situation is not improved at all, Well Lane 5 will not see any of the "interesting" cars running, that lots of people come to look at.

paul

 

Rich - not having a go at you, but the car went well on the journey to and from WL and was mapped by Steve Simpson. My (and others) estimate of its power was around 350-360 at about 6.5K @1.7bar. It sounded off and I believe it was due to too high air temps entering the engine.
I don't believe bringing the engine in cold would have done the engine a lot of good. I also know the engine runs better with the oil at over 180F. So what is the best way to achieve this on a cold day other than run the car periodically til it reaches 190F then switch off, return after 5 mins or so when oil temp is below 180F, re-run til 190 etc - which is what I did. (Not continuously for 20 mins as you suggest). Advice welcomed.
Stan

 

This a problem everywhere - I don't go anywhere near badly cooled rolling roads here in CH.

At a friends insistence, we mapped his car fairly aggressively for a session on a dyno shootout. I attended and monitored with DeltaDash - on the road his knock correction was quiet due to aftermarket headers (never seen any ecu correction, even when hearing det through cans), at least this session proved that it did come alive eventually You could also feel the drop in power in the car.

Fan was some crappy hair dryer type thing pointing at the radiator.

Richard

 

Pavlo,

I agree with you to a point - but SAS is also very poor for TMIC cars - my car lost over 40bhp between the first and second run.

If you have FMIC SAS is probably the best RR for charge cooling. However for TMIC it creates positive pressure under the bonnet and blows heated air up through the TMIC and out through the scoop.

I know this because when my waterspray switched in at 0.8bar the water came out of the scoop and on to the windscreen - and between runs my TMIC got very hot!

So all RR have their compromises - SAS is good but not perfect. Based on my own experience - PE is the best for cooling and reasonably comparitive figures. I did six consecutive runs at PE and each one produced better power as the tyres cleaned and gripped better. This did surprise me - but reflects my experience.

Also Merv has used three power runs from my car to demonstrate consisistency - three very different days over a year - same config - plus or minus 5 bhp with exactly the same curve - they could be overlaid

Trout

PS Andy - you mean we aren't talking about your car

 

Is getting worried now with all these peeps agreeing with me....

Hides under the bed!

Trout

 

Dave,
If we were Mr.men we would both be Mr.Cool.

You cos you've got a highly moded scoob and did it all yourself (With a bit of help from Mr.England).

Me cos, erh, erh, i made a cool entrance and i didnt get totaly left behind, unlike some others

Peace

 

Hi Stan and Trout,

I know you are not having a go at me personally, but thanks for saying so anyway.

Trout, I honestly didn't realise temps could make SUCH a difference, so I won't disagree with you. I know you are far more knowledgeable than me on this stuff, so I retract what I said, sorry Stan.

I agree as well with you when you say that our cars are at such a point now where we are surpassing the capabilities of the rollers. Maybe Well Lane should invest a bit in the machinery but I can't imagine they get too many cars like ours up there too often, so it may not be cost effective for them.

I'm aware that there are better rolling roads around. I myself am looking at going to G Force, but that's a 3 hour drive away and a lot of people aren't prepared to do that, especially if their car is only slightly modded.

Maybe we should agree on the best RR between us and all the 350+ brake people meet up there for a massive high power shoot out.

Meanwhile I'll continue to do the Well Lane days for those of us below 350 for whom slippage isn't a problem. Although the big boys are more than welcome to attend for a bit of fun and a chinwag.

Cheers

Rich

 

Rich,

It's worth asking at well lane what they would be prepared to do. RR days are a good laugh, and WL is just about the only RR where something can be organised that people from both ends of the country can attend.

It would be worth them investing a better fan setup and getting the rollers gripped if it meant continued RR days from Scoobynet and the RSOC. Even just adding £5 to the fee for WL 4 would have more than paid for the rollers to be gripped.

£10 more from WL 3 and 4 would have paid for a gripping and a new fan. And that's just scoobynet, making it a little unfair if everyone else gets to use the equipment paid for by SN peeps.

See what they say, SN has a bit of a history with WL what with the shoot out days and the SN guys doing Men & Motors stuff.

Paul

 

Cheers Paul,

I'll have a talk to Barry on Sunday and see what I can do.

Cheers

Rich

 

All that really needs to be done is for the rollers to be knurled again, PE had a similar problem and solved it by doing that, also they should try and run the "correct" load impedance to suit the car, my car needs loading up far more than a std car for example as its got more umph, simulation of "on road" conditions is the ideal.

Bob