Big Goon

Grrr... still not finished.. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

The Dealer/Prodrive/IM old boy network gets right up my bugle, my money's as good as anybody elses, but if your not a face or one of their *** kissers you get nowt. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Steve A

I specifically asked my dealer about this 'problem' who in turn contacted Subaru Technical to be told there is nothing wrong with the fuel pumps.
I must admit if it is a known problem ultimately causing pistons to melt you would have thought it would be cheaper on IMs front to recall the vehicles and fit repacement pumps than to be faced with rather expensive warranty claims + a dent to their renowned reliability factor.
So being neutral in all this is there a problem or not. Can someone from IM/Prodrive put their views into this discussion?

Razor2001

Hi John,

Thanks for the post matey Looks like some good figures. Amazing how the car was still running rich even when you upped the boost.

By the way, I noticed that the JDM is 1430 kg and the UK is 1470 kg. I don't think these weights include a full fuel tank so you may want to up your car weight slightly for the UK weight without passenger. It will help you achieve a slightly higer bhp and torque figure as well

Cheers,
Ray

mutant_matt

BG,

Calm down m8!! After all, once the original STi 7 PPP Ecu kits have sold out, I think that the PPP will switch to the remapped Ecu instead so if you do wait, you will arguably get a better PPP anyway

Matt

Deep Singh

John Banks,are you prepared to tell us how rich you were running it?(In AFRs,not voltages please)

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Steve A,
If you look at the Audi/ Volkswagon major Coil pack issues and still not a recall. Motor Manufactures will only recall a car on grounds of Safety They'd prefer £10,000,000 repair bill than a £5,000,000 recall. With a recall it the BAD publicity which really hurts. With No recall the only one to get hurt and frustrated is YOU. IMHO

So I don't think Subaru would recall the pump even if 300 engines blew up. They would blame, tyre pressures, too much polish so no drag, High wattage bulbs straining altenator thus engine, debadging altering the Power to weight ratio or Stereo upgrade changing the engines Harmonics for the melted pistons.

Big Goon,
Feel sorry for us lot with the Original STi7 PPP, the new STi7/8 ones alledgelly are REMAPPED with EcuTek software by Prodrive
Chill

Matt,
The keyboard seems to be spooolink better today.

Steve A

Point taken
OK if the problem is for real then why still put the 'faulty' bit of kit in the STi8?

wacky.banana

Chaps,

At the risk of stirring it a little if we have the evidence that there is a problem but Subaru UK/IM are either not aware of it or don't want to be aware of it why don't we just give Jeremy Clarkson a nod at this, or maybe the Watchdog team as a consumer gripe item?

Maybe that might shift things a little?

WB

wacky.banana

To the technical on this thread,

I take it that the answer to the question "does the ECU varying the voltage on the upgraded pump make any difference to it giving out upgraded performance" is a NO?

I also take it that there is no need to give upgraded pumps a direct 13.5 voltage feed?

As Deep says, these questions have not been answered.

Many thanks if you can answer authoritatively on these.

WB

john banks

The ECU does report a fuel pump duty which rises from 33 to 66 to 100 % at increased engine loads. It seems to work sensibly enough to me.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John,
If you were monitoring the ECU with a laptop, could you or the ECU tell, The STD injectors have issued the coorect amount of fuel. IE If the fuel pump short changed the injectors could you tell other than detting and bang ?? is there feed back from Injectors to ECU
Tony

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John,
You may have answered my question but went over my head a bit or I may not have put the question very well I try again, sorry please go easy on me as trying to learn and I'am old


A good mapped car with safe % afr etc. and asssume alls seemed well with STD pump if at WOT 7000rpm in 5th , the fuel pumps fails to deliver enough volume or drops to 33% unknowingly will ECU Know (is there injector feed back)? Could this then if injector is at say @ 90% duty, give 90% of available fuel, which could take the AFR to an unacceptably lean mixture.

I assume that the Lambara sensor and Knocksensor would feedback to ECU, saying leaning out, try to resolve issues with retarding timing and increasing IDC's. In normal senario's Map correction by this method would be fine and would try to do this on the hop. but theres still not enough fuel, what would happen next ??

Sorry probably tooooooo many ifs for you to give a Definative answer

Some drivers, report just before the bang and smoke, the engine was going the best it's ever gone is this due to leaning out.

Tony

Ps
Hope I'm not heading to the muppet forum it seemed sensible when I wrote it

Dave T-S

BG

Depending which criteria you use, I could probably viewed as an ar$e licker but certainly not with IM, whom I have a very frosty relationship with currently

Re the PPP, if you haven't had yours after 6 months, i'd say its probably down to your dealer not pushing it on your behalf, not IM or Prodrive.

With the springs, it's definitely down to Eibach not IM or Prodrive. Of course, any of us can say "well, get a new supplier then", but in reality it's not that simple.

ALL
Re the fuel pump issue, I don't care if mine does or doesn't go pop, if it does I will go and dump it on the doorstep of my local dealer and tell them to fix it under warranty. Until then, I just get in it, slam the door, drive it and enjoy it

gegecap1

John,
Have you made a serial to parallel fuel delivery conversion on your car ???
Do you have an idea after which injector duty cycle % this mod is required ?

Gérald

Pete Croney

Tony

The ecu can only fire the injectors, it cannot be told of their status or performance. The Lambda sensor is there for that and it is from the lambda sensor readings that the ecu will determine fueling (when on cruise). On WOT, it will fire the injectors at the values in its map.

john banks

The ECU controls the pump duty cycle. The knock sensor feeds back and the ECU will attempt to add fuel (losing battle if the pump is knackered) if it sees det. The lambda sensor you can read from Delta Dash. The ECU may have some mixture feedback (but I've found no evidence of it at full boost/high RPM).

Dave T-S

PS - anyone noticed that the MY03 STi PPP details disappeared off the Subaru UK site a couple of days ago, and have now reappeared, and the PPP now includes a "performance fuel pump"

Razor2001

Oh wow ! There it is, they have accepted the fact that the pump was not up to par if the car is modded for more power than stock. Well at least we can all rest now knowing that if you upgrade power to the STi-7 or 8 that you better upgrade your fuel pump. Discovered by the pros (on this board) confirmed by Subaru / PPP upgrade including pump

Cheers,
Ray

mutant_matt

Good spot Dave

Dave T-S

Ray
For the sake of accuracy, the MY02 (STi7 if you like) PPP doesn't now include a new pump, only the MY03 PPP

Dave T-S

Matt

I posted it for you, cos I knew you'd get excited

Adam M

dave, you are so ****!

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

John and Pete,
Many thanks for the answers and both kept it simple for me pretty much as I suspected

Dave-ts,
I suppose X amount Sti7/8UK's made, X -10% will be PPP'd/PE'd/SS'd or Ps'd so performance upgades will include a new Pump but IM/Subaru will the risk minority ;( and don't do a recall win win senario for them but some poor soul will lose his Pride and Joy for 3 weeks IMHO

I also slam the door and drive it LIIWS I have Warrenty(ee) for Matt and GAP

Tony

[Edited by T5NYW - 2/12/2003 5:54:01 PM]

ids

It will be intresting to see if we actually get any Prodrive feedback - or will it (as usual ) go suspiciosly quiet.......

Whats the bets ?

ids

mutant_matt

Adam,You have no idea

Tony,

You're getting closer m8 , but it's Warranty, not Warrenty

Also:Not really. They could change the fuel pump now at a cost of approx £200 for parts and labour x (roughly) 1000 cars sold (£200,000) - or, they can take the gamble that many cars won't be driven hard enough, often enough, long enough. If you guess at the average engine rebuild costing IM say £3000 (for arugments sake), then they have to rebuild 67 cars before they are worse off. Not sure how likely that is but doesn't sound like win-win to me!

If you then factor in the number of claims you could reject from owners who have modified you car, this will probably increase the odds further in IM's favour. (sounding more like win-win )

And like someone said, if they issue a recall, everybody gets to hear about it with the negative connatation that implies whereas, if they just rebuild each car which goes pop, only a very small number of people get to hear about it.....guess what I think will happen....

Matt.

Deep Singh

John Banks.Did you have any difficulty getting the STi7 to hold 1.35 bar in the midrange? Was it achieving 1.35 bar in gear two and three.Many thanks for your help,Deep.

mutant_matt

ids,

Technically, it's not Prodrive's problem, it's IM's and they don't post on this board (though it is presumed that they do read it).

Also, the STi 7 and 8 PPPs are different so you can't necessarily conclude that because the 8 PPP has a new pump, the 7 PPP needs one!

However, it would be very helpful if Mike Wood could post up some details which would help put people's mind at rest, but he's under no obligation to do so!

Matt

ids

Matt

I know the PPP is diffrent but are you seriosly trying to tell me an 8 is different to a 7 ?

I think the experts have already said enough about the quality/methods of the 7 PPP so its good that they have changed for the 8 - Again upsetting the 7 owners (like me) who not only have had a price drop but get - lets say - a 'lesser technical' (ahemm....) performance upgrade.

Me ?? I couldnt be arsed as thats why most of us brought UK models (perhaps not again) for the warrantee (sp)

I think its good that Prodrive/Mike do comment. So hopefully we will get an explaination. - ( I think i know what will happen though)

You can see BG's point though. Just yall remember it and some of the other stories when you come to buy your next car..... Hopefully sooner or later someone in Nippon will get the message.

Ids

Paul N P

I checked with PE/EcuTeK yesterday, they found the fuel pump problem on my motor back in early December when they did my EcuTeK mapping. They also fitted an upgraded one at the time, which puts my mind at rest!

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Matt,
You always but it much better than me I think my post meant to say the same ish

IDS,
lots of Knowledgable blokes have posted on here I don't include myself in that statement As Russel H said The Pump issue is really Subaru's reponsiblity and Prodrive/Mike Wood are looking after thier Product PPP hence, what Dave Ts noticed the change of spec on STi8 PPP
I have a Sti7PPP'd This pump issue does worry me I don't want my baby to go POP but I have warrainty, and not going to drive it any differently than I have been since 1,000mile service DILIWS

Russ,
Glad to here The cars going are you going this Sunday ?? we shall be doing some Delta-dash and AP22 runs should be 5+Sti7 PPP there to compare

Tony