Adam M

lol,

I darent say it but yes, I do!

Trout...

PML@Adam

Trout

Andy.F

Private joke then ?

I don't think a TD04 turbine will be able to make the most of the 20G compressor. TD04 with a 16G compressor is a more common hybrid.

carlos_hiraoka

Andy, is your exhaust housine / turbine still the stock one ?

Carlos H.

MorayMackenzie

Andy,

Do you have flow figures for the various wheels? For instance, how do the 16G, 18G and 20G actually compare in flow capability?

john banks

TD06H 20G does 640 CFM at PR 2.0, and almost 700 CFM at PR 2.35. But that is not attached to a TD05 back end.

TD05H 16G small does 505, TD05H 16G large does 550 (both at PR 2.0).

[Edited by john banks - 1/23/2003 7:26:26 PM]

Andy.F

Moray

The problem with the 20G compressor wheel is not lack of flow ie at 1.6 bar it will flow 650CFM whilst retaining 71% efficiency. This is enough for circa 430bhp at 7k rpm.
My old 16G would only pump a max of 520CFM at 1.4bar at a reduced 65% efficiency, this made (on paper and in practice) 370bhp @ 6K

The problem is with surge at lower RPM WOT. The 16G will happily run 1.6 bar from 3000 rpm without surge. The 20G however will need 4200 rpm before it will run 1.6 without surge.
The problem (for me) is compounded by the fact that the 20G when driven by a TD05 turbine, will physically spool up and 'try' to provide 1.6 bar as low as 3200rpm.

Having only a simple dawes valve to control the boost I am struggling to overcome this issue. A mappable ECU would be able to taper in the boost to avoid surge whilst providing decent power from 3k with around 1 bar rising to 1.6 at 4.2k

Still, it's a challenge

ustolemyname??stevieturbo

iTrader: (1)

Or an aftermarket boost controller would also make things very easy for you, and may sort the surge problem out, by having much better control of the boost.

Andy.F

Yes, that would do the trick ok.

dowser

Or larger displacement, perhaps

Richard

Andy.F

That's for later

Andy.F

.

[Edited by Andy.F - 1/24/2003 8:31:19 AM]

MorayMackenzie

Andy,

Thanks for that. Unfortuantely I knew about the surge anyway. My question was simply about flow figures for the 16G, 18G and 20G wheels. John helped a bit on that front, but as yet, I havent heard anything about the 18G wheel, or the operating efficiencies on any of the wheels at the quoted points fromt he compressor map.

I dont suppose there is anywhere on the net where I can freely obtain compressor maps for these units? I would especially like to see ones for the 18G and 20G wheels.

Moray

john banks

http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm has some.

Andy.F

Moray

It's not so much the quoted 'standard pr2.0' efficiency and flow rate that really matters. You rarely, if ever, run at that point on the map.

Of greater interest to me is the main area used on the application, as I discussed above.
For example, comparing 16G to 20G - take 5250rpm at 1.6 bar, whilst flowing air for 330bhp/330lb-ft the 16G will be running at 70% whilst the 20G is at 75% efficiency.
Take that up to 1.8 bar at the same rpm and, well the 16G will not go there whilst the 20G is still running at 74% and flowing air for 355/355

Andy

Andy.F

Can you cutback an exhaust turbine wheel with an angle grinder ?

Tip - Don't stand behind my cars exhaust pipe at WL4

john banks

Purple Monster Turbo (TM) by Dremel Master (C) 2002
Worldwide patents applied for

David_Wallis

you didnt

Will be finally good to take the **** to each others face

David

MorayMackenzie

Thanks John. Forgot that site had this stuff on it. No cmpressor map for 18G though.

Thanks Andy, although I also had a reasonably good idea about that. This time I asked for compressor maps. I still haven't seen anything on the 18G. Doesn't anyone know anything about that one?

Pavlo

You could perhaps get the turbine housing exit enlarged, not sure how well that would work out.

Port the wastegate right out?

Who knows

Paul

carlos_hiraoka

Andy what is the inlet diameter of your TD06 housing ?

tato_dc

I found this on the NASIOC forum!!!

Turbo Type Approx flow @ pressure
Stock Turbo 360 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 25 370 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 26 390 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
T3 60 trim 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF 27 400 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 24/28/29 410 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
========= 422 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
IHI VF 23 423 CFM at 14.7 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID 430 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- derived from HP potential listed on web
IHI VF-30 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated
SR 30 435 CFM at 14.7 PSI
IHI VF-22 440 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- refigured
T04E 40 trim 460 CFM at 14.7 PSI
========= 464 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
PE1818 490 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
Small 16G 505 CFM at 14.7 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) 525 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.0 (14.7 PSI) 7000 RPM =======
Large 16G 550 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 40 595 CFM at 14.7 PSI
18G 600 CFM at 14.7 PSI
PE 1820 630 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- estimated from max flow numbers
20G 650 CFM at 14.7 PSI
SR 50 710 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-30 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
60-1 725 CFM at 14.7 PSI
GT-35R 820 CFM at 14.7 PSI
T72 920 CFM at 14.7 PSI <--- Note you would have to spin a 2.0 L
engine at about 14,000 rpm to flow this much air.

IHI VF 25 395 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 26 400 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
T3 60 trim 410 CFM at 20 PSI
IHI VF 27 420 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 24/28/29 425 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF 23 430 CFM at 18 PSI <--- estimated
IHI VF-30 460 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- estimate based on trap speeds of cars running this turbo
AVO 320HP 465 CFM at 17.5 PSI
T04E 40 trim 465 CFM at 22 PSI
FP STOCK HYBRID 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI
IHI VF-22 490 CFM at 18.0 PSI <--- refigured
SR 30 490 CFM at 22 PSI
Small 16G 490 CFM at 22 PSI
ION Spec (stg 0) 500 CFM at 19 PSI <--- per vendor post 12-27-2002
PE1818 515 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
Large 16G 520 CFM at 22 PSI <--- upgraded flow some on review of compressor map
========= 526 CFM max flow for a 2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======

========= 578 CFM max flow for a 2.2 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT2835 400 hp 580 CFM at 22 PSI
MRT 400 580 CFM at 16 PSI <--- added
AVO 400HP 580 CFM at 17.5 PSI
MRT 450 650 CFM at 19 PSI <--- added
AVO 450HP 650 CFM at 20.0 PSI
SR 40 650 CFM at 22 PSI <--- added, got lost some how in editing
========= 658 CFM max flow for a 2.5 Liter at .85 VE pressure ratio 2.5 (22 PSI) 7000 rpm =======
HKS GT3037 460 hp 670 CFM at 22 PSI
PE 1820 680 CFM at 22 PSI <--- estimated from manufactures rated max power
20G 695 CFM at 20.0 PSI <--- added
HKS GT3040 490 hp 710 CFM at 22 PSI
AVO 500HP 725 CFM at 23.0 PSI
SR 50 770 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-30 790 CFM at 22 PSI
60-1 800 CFM at 22 PSI
HKS GT3240 570 hp 830 CFM at 22 PSI
GT-35R 880 CFM at 22 PSI
T72 1000 CFM at 22 PSI <--- note you would have to run a 2.0 L engine
at >40 PSI boost to flow this much air









Conversions used where I had control over conversion factors:

1 HP approx equals 1.45 CFM
1 CFM approx equals 0.0745 lb of air/min
0.108 Lb/min approx equals 1 hp
1 Meter cubed/sec = 35.314 CFS = 2118.867 CFM
1 KG/sec = 132 lbs/min approx equals 1771.812 CFM



power coversions:
1 PS = 0.9859 HP = 75 Kgf m/sec
1.3405 HP = 1 KW <-- edited to fix stupid typo
1 HP = 746 watts <-- edited to fix stupid typo

Adam M

cool, 500bhp @ 1 bar and 554bhp at 1.5 bar!!! bring it on!

assuming of course that that is in fact my turbo listed on there!

hypoluxa

I Believe the Rigolis use a some form of hybrid T60-1. The Norris Designs Evo is supposedly running a T72.

Adam, what wastegate are you using?

Adam M

racegate

carlos_hiraoka

..... does the stock MY 96 WRX TD05H have the small or big 16g compressor wheel ?

john banks

Small.

carlos_hiraoka

thanx John ..... is it easy to fit a big 16g wheel, or is machining required ?

john banks

From what I see of the compressor maps I would not bother fitting the bigger wheel - too similar, in a lot of areas the small one is quite efficient. If you want bigger, a 20G looks the way to go and is not significantly laggier.

Andy.F

To fit the big 16G you would need to machine the cover or fit an early DSM cover if you are using front entry.
The big 16G wheel is ideal for high boost midrange. Due to its trim it will run to 2.2 bar (PR3.2) and should yield approx 420-430 lb-ft torque from a 2.0 (if your engine will hold it ?) Flow falls off at high rpm but should still be good for 390bhp

The 20G has the same compressor outside diameter as the big 16G but a larger inducer (suction) hence the 20G having such low lag. The change in trim dictates that the 20G is not able to run to 2.2bar but will still be very efficient at 1.8bar which should be enough for 370lb-ft on a 2.0 The upside is that it will flow much more top end and on the right engine could flow for 460bhp



[Edited by Andy.F - 7/21/2003 11:35:40 PM]