R19KET

Tony,

LOL........Mate, you should SEE the Prodrive "GrpN/GrpA" rods !!!!

Custom forged, ARP2000, or similar bolts, oil way forged in, running from the big, to the small end !!!!

Or, how about an enquiry I have, for an EJ20 closed deck block to be converted to a 2.2lt, for use in GrpN !!!!!

I have sold about 10 sets of rods to guys re-building rally engines, ALL GrpN/A.......

They aren't changing them for the sake of it. Most are running on a budget, and find it more cost effective to up rate the rods, rather than either regular re-builds, or broken rods.

Mark.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

So you've got some shifty punters then Mark .

If you would like to show me the Prodrive rods i'll more than glady take them off your hands... you may not get them back tho .

Tony.




[Edited by Tone Loc - 12/13/2002 12:13:38 PM]

Pavlo

If I were subaru, I would argue that any rods made from the production tooling, with material in the production facility, were productin rods.

How could you argue otherwise?

Also, at that time, didn't 500 cars count as a production quantity? Or was that phased out prior to?

Even if subaru made 5000 blanks with uprated material, and the heat-treatment and surface prep were carried out afterwards, they are still production rods.

It's not breaking the rules, it's getting the most out of the rules as they stand.

Paul

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Paul.... how can something made from 'uprated' material be considered a production item????? Isn't that then considered uprated?

Tony.

Pavlo

Because the production spec for that rod can easily allow for a number of material types to allow stock to always be purchased.

The differences in the alloys are going to be very slight in terms of composition.

Can you say for sure that 95 pistons are made form the same alloy as 94? Maybe they changed to improve wear resistance, who knows.

Homologated parts will be given a Fiche, a document that details the exact nature of the part. The engine should have one, as will the turbo. On the fiche, you would expect to find details of the fit, form and funtion of the part(s). Exact chemical composition wouldn't be one of them, steel alloy, or steel/nickel alloy is as detailed as it's likely to get. Even forging as the method of construction is probably not enforced, provided the end product is the exact same size and shape within tolerance limits, also on the fiche.

Upon strutineering, the scrutineer may choose to inspect one or 2 competitors at random for inspection. He will inspect against the fiche, (even engine internals after the event has finished).

If you take some production parts, and process them so they are still the same size and shape, they are still production parts. Usually there will be a rule prohibiting the adding of material. So welding up something, getting it machined, blasted to look "as cast", and heat treated, would be breaking the rules (trust me on that!). Removal of material is usually allowed.

If you want cheating at a high level, look at F1. Teams are always at it. Putting in lead shot on a last quick-dash fuel stop?

Paul

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Cheating in F1 Paul...... never. I can't believe it... it's like being told that father christmas doesn't exist. It's just not possible that it can be true .

Tony.

Katana

Yeah, no wonder Schumacer is still on top. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

R19KET

Andy,

Phew, for a moment there, I though I'd gone and use billet rods for nothing

Paul,

The Prodrive GrpN/A rods that I've seen, bear no resemblance to the stock rod, what so ever. Not even CLOSE !!!!

Mark.

Katana

lol Everyone is getting paranoid here for different reasons.

hypoluxa

Prodrive also machine their Group N blocks (phase1) to accept a larger thrust bearing.?

Forester_GP

I've just bought a bunch of Books from Autospeed so i can keep up with you people. Yeah..i know what you're all thinking, theory is far from practiced experience well, i have a solution for that too, my poor Forester will soon undergo a major internal surgery and the outcome will put your theories to test!!!

George
PS. Now how do i incorporate those nice smilies into my message.

Pavlo

hypoluxa,

Machining the block still means that the production part is still being used. Removal of material is rarely an issue, unless you are adding more ports or something (for instance on a 2 stroke engine).

I wouldn't mind betting that rods aren't even included in the fiche anyway. The proviso is probably just material (any steel will do) and rod length.

Perhaps rally colin can say more accurately.

Paul

R19KET

Katana,

Paranoid, NO, sarcastic, yes

Since I've already managed to snap a gudgeon pin, I wouldn't dream of trying stock rods.

But I'm glad to see Andy is prepared to be our test pilot

Mark.

Katana

I know what you mean. I'm the one paranoid here to be honest. Thats why I tend to avoid doing high revs. I know my parts could take it.....when its new. But who knows when the designers decided at what millage for it to break? With your uprated parts, not only could it take it, but its meant to last longer too because you don't really rely on continous purchase like the main car manufacturers do.

I've got almost 70,000 kms on my clock and I'm not too keen on rebuildin an engine in the winter.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Don't suppose anybody actually has a 3D CAD drwaing of a rod???? I could then run it through an FEA programme (ANYSYS, or Patran/Nastran) if some body gives the type of maximum loads it would see. This can then be run through a fatigue programme (such as nCode) and we could see what sort of life is expected. The results would obviously depend on the information given such as material information and loading (which could be quite a complex loading cycle..... not just constant on off of the max load). I spent a year at uni doing this after i had finished my degree. This was done in conjuction with a motor manufacturer (trucks tho ) and the results we got were then simulated in the lab (a batch of about 100 components).... the software results were surprisingly good (the loading info was gained from a dynamics program, Adams, so was pretty representative).

Just be interesting to see what results we get..... Katana your at uni right? What sort of software do you use for FEA etc?

Tony.

Andy.F

Watch your mirrors Aigin

[Edited by Andy.F - 12/14/2002 12:25:26 PM]

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

LOL@andy

Pavlo

Is there any point in doing an FEA?

If someone wants to CAD up a rod, I'll be happy to do something with Ansys. Given that rods are in engines, it's all a bit too late.

Paul

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Just out of interest Paul.... FEA tho is only the first bit. That will not tell us much... it's the fatigue software that will give us the interesting bit.

Tony.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

Ps Paul.... any news on the little one yet?

Tony.

Pavlo

none

David_Wallis

Andy.F

Mark's old Sti engine ??? I recognise the fingers !!!

R19KET

Andy,

No, not my old STi engine. This is a bog standard STi4, unmodified, driven by the local Vicar. It let go, whilst going about his parish duties !! ;-)

Not certain about it's background to be honest. Mr Wallis picked up for me as a favour, and semi stripped it, so Adam M could get it into the boot of his Tonka toy, and bring it back.

It's purely coincidence, that when David removed the sump this afternoon, he found that the bottom end had been destroyed by a broken rod. Hard to say quite what caused it, from the pic's.

That big end is a bloody mess though.

Ps. Yes, I will keep checking my mirrors, because that's exactly where I'd expect to find you

Oh, and if you want any spare stock rods, just ask, I've got quite a selection, most in better condition than the one shown above

Mark.

Katana

I can check for you after christmas if you want. Uni is closed now.

hypoluxa

Pavlo,

You didn't read the last half of my post. They machine the block so they can use a larger and more robust bearing. So the production part is obviously not used...

No idea whether its legal or not, but I've seen it done to a couple of prodrive assembled Gp N engines.