Yeah sorry about that John To get the detail, the original files were about 4meg, but the uploader didn't like them

As for the techie answer to your question, they have ditched hot wire and hot film, instead now using hot blob technology.

Seriously it really is a robust unit and the potential for contamination has been dealt with.

A word of warning though. If you fit some of the cone filters available for the STI7/WRX the intake pipe that holds the MAF is a larger diameter. This will result in the MAF registering a slower air flow (less air entering the engine) and will reduce fuelling accordingly. This will definitely cost you a piston or worse!!!

 

Haha, "Hot Blob" technology.....
Nice one Pete.

Mike.

 

This is a good thread, quality info is coming out of it. I learned something anyway.

 

Right but its still a hot film type, you can get air contamination in there as airflow over the inner end (was going to say orifice but then this thread would degenerate) will act on it like a venturi tapping and help pull air through, its certainly much less likely though, doesn't prevent misreading under the wrong conditions though, as Pete says, some scary effects can be had !!

BTW the temp sensor is only there to read general ambient as its response is going to be relatively slow encapsulated as it is. Any sudden change would not be seen.

 

a bit like the plastic coated ambiant sensor in the inlet trumpet of an STi5/6 then.

 

Does the MY01/02 MAF fit on the older MY99/00 cars?

Stefan

 

Yep - they still get killed - Subaru Japan added a part number for replacements a few months after the new Denso stuff was released...

Supply to meet demand I guess.

 

Makes ditching the MAF and replacing with GEMS (+ circa 40BHP) sound a whole lot more attractive then eh?

Form an orderly queue gentlemen.


Mike

 

FAO Moderator,

This has turned into a highly technical discussion on Filters, doubtless of great interest and value to the proponents. However, the issue of vaster importance to the majority of us - and that raised by the initiator - is how IM handle this warranty claim. Is there any way of shunting the technical discussion, while keeping the warranty issue alive on, and accessible through, "General", please?

Phil

 

Good point Phil.

I suggest we leave any further teccy chat to specific threads in drivetrain and keep this thread for up dates from Adair69 and others.

 

I'll apologize in advance for this post if it is quite long but I thought I'd give you an update.

Having still not had any written communiqué from Subaru themselves I have resorted to gaining information via many sources. Quite simply and without theatrics or Rhetoric. Subaru are absolutely convinced irrefutably that if you change the center CAT of the exhaust the engine will overheat and bang, bye bye engine. The melted no1 piston is down to that. Now for Subaru to not be bothered to even talk to me, they must have VERY convincing data and evidence to back it up. Now if you are like me there is one thing you never do, and that is throw good money after bad!! Its very easy to do, and indeed always seems a good idea at the time, but I have had a long good look at the situation and whilst doing so I have had one shred of silver lining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No its not Subaru UK, but the people everyone likes to blame for most problems the dealer... Beechdale Nottingham.
I am to coin a phrase absolutely stunned at how excellent Beechdale have been to me. Although I am completely disillusioned with Subaru customer care, Beechdale have just been brilliant. They have been in constant communication with me, helping me in every way they can. Ultimately as a customer they have been so far absolutely unrivalled in their attempts to help. Even though they of course really don't have to offer me anything they have bent over backwards to enable me to go ahead with the work to get the car back on the road, and more than that, repaired to Subaru UK standards to enable me to run a stock Warranted Subaru vehicle. Beechdale I must stress do not have any obligation to me other than good will, but have indeed as I said before really helped me out so that I can move forwards with sorting out my car.
I can quite honestly say that they really have converted me to a customer for life, I'm just pleased that they have other franchises!

I think there is however a very valuable lesson for all on Scoobynet. Subaru have obviously been, as they feel burnt by many spurious claims in the past where extensively modified cars have pushed cars beyond manufacturing tolerances. This has led to them implementing a rigid checking of all vehicles, and consequently I assume extensive testing on non-OEM parts and their effects.
The fact that my car was not modded in my eyes and indeed most of the people on Scoobynet, means that the purchase of Non OEM parts however small we feel they are is just as bad as putting a new turbo on the car, or induction system.
The only way for any of you not to end up in my sad predicament is to do one of two things!
1. Be VERY lucky in the dealer you have, I am very grateful that I had Beechdale.

2. Only go to that dealer and buy genuine OEM parts. They may cost a little more, but they all carry product liability insurance, and they all don't effect your warranty. Lets face it its worth about £6k in my case!! How much is it in yours?
There are a lot of aftermarket companies on Scoobynet, and they all want your money even if you aren't under warranty, how many of you have asked if the part is covered by product liability?? Not many I bet, now ask the same of your dealer and you'll get a yes!
I know exactly where I'll spend my money next time, and it won't cost me £6k!!!!!!!

 

Well, maybe they do, and maybe they don't. Or maybe you're being fobbed off using hard-nosed tactics designed to make you do exactly what you've apparently done. Who can tell?? You've had some authoritative-sounding advice from the Board which doubtless you've taken into account, but have you sought confirmatory professional advice at the cost of a small amount of 'bad money'??

How have you been notified of the decision, and justification for it, from S-UK - through the Dealer as intermediary??? If there's one thing that would really sharpen my teeth, it would be a refusal by S-UK to respond at all.

All sounds highly unsatisfactory.... But, I accept, in the final analysis, it's your money (all £6K of it)

Phil

 

Adair69

If Subaru are convinced that you burnt a piston because you removed the second cat, why are Subaru happy for this cat to be removed in conjunction with a piggy back chip that fools the ecu into running more boost?

I refer to, of course, the PPP.

As for product liability, my company has it and I suspect most others do too, including the company that you bought the exhaust parts from. We also insist that all of our suppliers have it too. However, I feel you would have a MUCH harder job proving that your centre de-cat DID cause the failure, than you would proving that it didn't make a blind bit of difference.

 

So it basically boils down to this,

If you want to improve the sound of the car then you must purchase the PPP, even if you dont require the performance gains.

You can't buy the PPP exhaust parts individually so its all or nothing ?

If you purchase and fit any part other than a Subaru/Prodrive part then forget the warranty ?

Can I afford to run the risk and keep my Nurspec R on the car ? can I ****.

I have spent 5k on top of the purchase price of the car already, there's no way I can afford to spend 6k+ on a new engine. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Do the bean counters at IM even have a clue ?

 

I can see your point Pete about the PPP and I agree it brings forth the question of double standards.

Unfortunatly when using/fitting non Subaru approved parts, the harsh reality is when problems do arise and a warranty claim is refused the customer now has the burden of prooving that these parts did not cause the problem in order to further this warranty claim.

If you parts supplier on his side(understandably) says you now
have to prove the part they supplied caused the problem if you wish to make a claim against him then-

Frankly you are between a rock and a hard place

Prodrive/IM/Subaru understand that claims will occur on standard/ppp'd cars, however Prodrive parts are approved, and so provided they are fitted in line with their instructions there is no need for the customer to consider them as an issue.

After all is said and done some of their profits have to be put aside to pay for the warranty that covers these claims.

At the end of the day we all have a choice, right or wrong, fair or unfair, non approved parts carry this risk, if there is a warranty involved, be aware of any implications.


[Edited by scoobycar60 - 25/01/2003 11:16:37]

 

big goon
If you have increased the power out put of your car significantly then you are putting more strain on the components of your engine Why should you expect a warranty company to cover a non approved higher risk engine set up for the same money as a bog standard and lower stressed engine.

I am not on Subaru, IM or Prodrives side and I feel adair69 has been hard done by, a settlement of a large proportion of the repair costs should have been offered IMHO.

I just think there is too much crying over spilt milk on this thread/board. The rule (harsh as it is) is simple if you mod your car then you trash your warranty on any related components this effects. Accept it!

 

Adair69,
Have your fuel pump checked

Tony

[Edited by T5NYW - 25/01/2003 11:56:49]

 

Scoobycar, read my post properly

I wanted to change the sound of my car when it was new, not increase the power, hence I fitted the Blitz and left everything else standard, so you think I deserve to lose my warranty ?

 

Thanks for your help by the way

 

adair,

I would at least get an independant engineers report on the matter (or has the car been rebuilt now?). I don't think the burden of proof is on you to prove that the replacement exhaust *did* cause the problem, I think that the burden is on IM to prove it was the cause! Either way, I would get some legal advice to find out where you stand. Bear in mind that completely standard cars have blown up too which supports your case that it was not the exhaust that caused your problem.

I wouldn't lie down just yet but I can understand why you have. IM are well known for their hard lined and unsympathetic approach to warranties and I wouldn't mind betting you have a good case!!! After all, the PPP exhaust removes the 2nd cat and has a more free flowing 1st cat so I don't see how they can put the blame at the rear section of the exhaust without proving that!

Anyway, Good luck, whatever you choose to do!!!

Matt

 

Sorry Big Goon! It seems 1 have miss read your post some what!
I'll try and be a bit more helpful.

If you want to change the sound of your exhaust you could fit a Subaru WR Sport back box, which is a Subaru part (no warranty issue) and in effect, apart from the oval tail pipe, you would have a prodrive back box.

Less restrictive, more "burbbley" and likely to release a few bhp
my sti7 achieved 272bhp / 262lbs on the rollers with one of these fitted (rest standard),it sounded much better than the original very restrictive b/box.

As my car is now PPP'd I have this to sell,make me an offer if you like.

 

Scoobycar60,
Nice to meet you in Person glad your enjoying PPP as much as me great ain't it

I do personally IMHO IIRC not related to etc. etc. I think the removal of the second CAT was a get out unfortunately thats the trouble with drawing a line in the sand

Adiar69,
What you need to do is prove
A) the removal made no difference( likely )

B) There was other probable causes ( very likely )

Tony

 

In the Subaru warranty booklet for my MY99 it states that the warranty will not cover

I would read that as saying that Subaru UK must prove that the modification (changing of the exhaust) was THE cause of the engine failure.

Scoobycar60,

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as all that. European law states that you, as a consumer, can fit non-OEM parts that are of the same (or better) quality without voiding the warranty on the rest of the car. If the part has been the direct cause of a failure, then of course the manufacturer can refuse a claim and the consumer would have every right to receive compensation from the manufacturer of the replacement part.

Stefan



[Edited by ozzy - 1/27/2003 12:19:38 AM]

 

No wonder Subaru are such a bunch of con merchants as you lot seem to let them get away with it.
You have a great oppurtunity here adair to take the utter pi55 and get a proper engine in your car. As I have said get 2 independant reports confirming the filter and exhaust were not the cause get a dogs b0llocks rebuild by a specialist and then give Subaru the bill. If they dont cough up within 14 days take them to the small claims court where they wont have a leg to stand on.
I am sure that many other owners of the same model who have suffered similar problems will happily write you an account of there problems which you can also present as evidence making poobaru UK look even more stupid than one of their current bug eyed monstrosity impreza's.
Disregard the totally stupid technical gloom and doom of felsteads technical thesis on air filters as its not in the least bit relevant all that is is the LAW. As can be proven By the crap PPP thing poobaru peddle ( naff exhaust and on off the shelf chip no wonder your cars fail if you stick junk like this on em)the centre cat is of no real consequence so whats your problem. Dont look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Edited by co55ie - 1/27/2003 1:20:24 AM]

 

Ozzy

I really hope you are right and I have made my point that I think Adair69 should have been offered (confidentially even) a settlement.

Unfortunatly I think you will find that removing a cat will be enough of a "modification" or "alteration" as to the characteristics of that component (e.g.how can it be of the same quality as the original if it no longer performs the role of the original) to give the warranty loss assessor confidence to refuse to pay out.

Please dont shoot the messenger here, some one has to act as devils advocate to air the feelings people express here.

Personally I think the exhaust excuse here is a red herring and I hope the true reason for the recent failures will emerge sooner rather than later.

 

T5NYW

Great to meet you, Yep pleased as punch with the PPP, really gives the car what it needed. See you again soon m8

 

shame to see co55ie is still as rude as ever. Why dont you finance this stonking build then co55ie? seem as though you are so convinced other people should take such a risk.

Sounds like you have a great dealer!

 

Scoobycar60,

I just wanted to point out that the Subaru warranty (for my car anyway, not sure if the new models wording has changed) implies that the modification has to be THE cause of the failure.

I therefore think it's down to Subaru UK to prove this beyond any reasonable doubt. The problem is they will just refuse to pay out and it's up to poor adair69 to fight this decision. He has to ask himself is it worth spending 6K getting the problem fixed or spending even more time and/or money fighting it.

This is not something specifically problematic with Subaru as there are many more manufacturers who hve refused warranty claims due to some part being changed from the OEM one.

The point of the EU law was to prevent this sort of thing happening to consumers and to put the responsibility on the manufacturer to prove their case.

I think this is a case of we're bigger than you, so tough

Stefan

 

Quote: 'installation of parts not equivalent in quality and design to parts supplied by Subaru UK Limited'

So does this mean that I can fit any Subaru UK supplied part to my car? Even from a P1/Sti7/8?

F

 

I would relish this oppurtunity Mr Felstead if i was in Adairs unfortunate position. I know I would come out with a better than new engine and a few grand for my inconvenience. You may think I am rude nut at least I wouldnt bend over and get shafted in this situation. Also remeber that if Adair bought this car using finance the finance company are jointly liable aswell so there are at least 3 avenues to pursue. Poobaru being very easy pickings. How can you feel sorry for someone that is not prepared to help themselves ? It seems that adair is going to have to finance these costs himself regardless so all he has to loose is the cost of a couple of engineers reports at the most. Am I the one who is talking rubbish here I dont think so and i dont think you do either Mr Felstead

My last head to head with a Major motormanufacturer cost them in excess of 40k for a £150 part. Total cost to me several phone calls and one letter.


[Edited by co55ie - 1/27/2003 12:45:02 PM]