Estimated Power???
21 May 2003, 09:40 PM
#152
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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you do have bigger wheels.. elvington would have been really good fun.. watching you in my mirrors that is 
21 May 2003, 10:55 PM
#154
I think this may be of use:
on the road I think the gap was less, and after drivetrain losses, even less again. Also DW's boost didn't come i nmuch earlier on the road that the graph suggests, whereas Steven's does (I was in Stevens car at the time on part of the journey in question). This is probably down to the link boost control, regardless, the apparent gap in torque curves probably isn't there on the road. I also don't remember spending much time under 5000rpm when in Steven's car.
As nice as the TD05 is, i still don't think we've seen the best from the MD304 for whatever reason. Maybe you just need to revert to a factory ECU
Paul
on the road I think the gap was less, and after drivetrain losses, even less again. Also DW's boost didn't come i nmuch earlier on the road that the graph suggests, whereas Steven's does (I was in Stevens car at the time on part of the journey in question). This is probably down to the link boost control, regardless, the apparent gap in torque curves probably isn't there on the road. I also don't remember spending much time under 5000rpm when in Steven's car.
As nice as the TD05 is, i still don't think we've seen the best from the MD304 for whatever reason. Maybe you just need to revert to a factory ECU
Paul
22 May 2003, 10:50 AM
#156
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And.... you should never compare runs from 2 different days unless you are sure you have fully compensated for ambient temperature, atmospheric pressure and humidity, boost pressure, oil temp, fuel octane, oil viscosity, tyre temperature, colour of your underpants, etc etc blah blah blah
22 May 2003, 11:13 AM
#160
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David was running a bog standard 90 degree TD05 IIRC
Front entry mod is good for at least another 20bhp
[Edited by Andy.F - 5/22/2003 11:15:03 AM]
Front entry mod is good for at least another 20bhp
[Edited by Andy.F - 5/22/2003 11:15:03 AM]
22 May 2003, 11:43 AM
#162
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Andy,
does the front entry bring the torque in harder too and give a fatter curve?
it certainly feels so compared to the MD304 cars I have been in compared to the front entry TD05's.
I think steven and I are after similar things from our cars. my plan is still to keep the 440's, up the fuel pressure and get 320bhp, while he is keeping sensible with the 550's. I am wanting similar boost to his too at 1.3bar peak and hope I do not need to run more with the standard uk block and pistons, certainly not at track days .
the main reason I went TD05 was to help performance below 4500rpm as I'm not wanting big power.(the price was the other ) it sounds like you are saying without a big boost peak the TD would not be that good, does anyone else agree with this?
[Edited by T-uk - 5/22/2003 11:47:52 AM]
does the front entry bring the torque in harder too and give a fatter curve?
it certainly feels so compared to the MD304 cars I have been in compared to the front entry TD05's.
I think steven and I are after similar things from our cars. my plan is still to keep the 440's, up the fuel pressure and get 320bhp, while he is keeping sensible with the 550's. I am wanting similar boost to his too at 1.3bar peak and hope I do not need to run more with the standard uk block and pistons, certainly not at track days .
the main reason I went TD05 was to help performance below 4500rpm as I'm not wanting big power.(the price was the other ) it sounds like you are saying without a big boost peak the TD would not be that good, does anyone else agree with this?
[Edited by T-uk - 5/22/2003 11:47:52 AM]
22 May 2003, 11:52 AM
#163
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I wonder how much my euro phase 2 lump is producing these days, with 1.5 bar (held) sloping off to 1.2 around 7k...with the front entry 05, and 440's run at 4 bar @ atmo?
Fuelling is kept around 11,5:1 all the way through, going slightly richer up on top (and idc's hits 100%
).
It does feel...ummm...entertaining.
/J
Fuelling is kept around 11,5:1 all the way through, going slightly richer up on top (and idc's hits 100%
).It does feel...ummm...entertaining.
/J
22 May 2003, 11:55 AM
#165
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Location: Leeds - It was 562.4bhp@28psi on Optimax, How much closer to 600 with race fuel and a bigger turbo?
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Non front entry 22psi held to the red line.. there was no real boost control.. we were really struggling to get boost at first..
David
David
22 May 2003, 12:01 PM
#166
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A flat boost curve (but still in the turbo's efficiency range) will have your torque number in lbft being well behind your power number in BHP on this size of turbo on an EJ20. Well at least when you've optimised the timing and fuelling and you are not choking the turbo at the top end.
A midrange overboost will give it the shove to make the car feel very quick and in the real world it will be. In addition the stress on the box will be huge (that is how I broke mine). Plus the octane requirements for running higher midrange boost are more stringent as this is where it likes to det at areas of highest VE. 4400-5200 RPM is the real hotspot, and tends to be the area you drop to after a gearchange so transitional det pokes through here first whilst your gearbox strips itself.
The balance of torque and power can also affect how you feel about the car. A massive midrange push can make the top end feel flat. Turn down the midrange and you have a slower car but it feels like you've gained a load of top end.
1.3 bar should be way more than enough to get 320 BHP, but you'll need to think about what midrange to run to get the torque you are looking for.
Looks like David's had a lovely slug of midrange to give a phat wedge of torque.
It is interesting how we are all obsessed by how much boost is safe to run. I think we are asking the wrong questions. If you consider the loading on the standard engine parts, if you are meticulous about detonation prevention then even the cast pistons are more capable than we think I suspect. The conrod peak loading from 1.5 bar midrange will not tickle the engine's structure compared with other conrod loadings (RPM). Cast pistons are apparently strong if you don't allow detonation. I think the main hazard is the gearbox.
[Edited by john banks - 5/22/2003 12:11:36 PM]
A midrange overboost will give it the shove to make the car feel very quick and in the real world it will be. In addition the stress on the box will be huge (that is how I broke mine). Plus the octane requirements for running higher midrange boost are more stringent as this is where it likes to det at areas of highest VE. 4400-5200 RPM is the real hotspot, and tends to be the area you drop to after a gearchange so transitional det pokes through here first whilst your gearbox strips itself.
The balance of torque and power can also affect how you feel about the car. A massive midrange push can make the top end feel flat. Turn down the midrange and you have a slower car but it feels like you've gained a load of top end.
1.3 bar should be way more than enough to get 320 BHP, but you'll need to think about what midrange to run to get the torque you are looking for.
Looks like David's had a lovely slug of midrange to give a phat wedge of torque.
It is interesting how we are all obsessed by how much boost is safe to run. I think we are asking the wrong questions. If you consider the loading on the standard engine parts, if you are meticulous about detonation prevention then even the cast pistons are more capable than we think I suspect. The conrod peak loading from 1.5 bar midrange will not tickle the engine's structure compared with other conrod loadings (RPM). Cast pistons are apparently strong if you don't allow detonation. I think the main hazard is the gearbox.
[Edited by john banks - 5/22/2003 12:11:36 PM]
22 May 2003, 02:23 PM
#168
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From the test runs in JB's car, the TD05 and MD304 were actually quite similar in peak output - up to around 1.4 bar. The 304 started to flatten off a bit after this and the 05 pulled a few more bhp as the boost increased to 1.5.
The big difference I noticed was in boost response time, the 05 was almost instant whilst the 304 had a bit of a delay. I think this is why the difference on well lane rollers is so pronounced. (they have a quick run up time which does not allow the 304 to spool early enough)
I'm sure that on the road in a high gear the two turbo's are quite similar but in the lower gears the quicker spooling 05 will have the edge.
Steven re the AP22 You are behind Christian on the 'borrow' list
As I've just received my new ECU it is likely to be in use for the next week or 2 or 3 or 4
Andy
The big difference I noticed was in boost response time, the 05 was almost instant whilst the 304 had a bit of a delay. I think this is why the difference on well lane rollers is so pronounced. (they have a quick run up time which does not allow the 304 to spool early enough)
I'm sure that on the road in a high gear the two turbo's are quite similar but in the lower gears the quicker spooling 05 will have the edge.
Steven re the AP22 You are behind Christian on the 'borrow' list
As I've just received my new ECU it is likely to be in use for the next week or 2 or 3 or 4
Andy
22 May 2003, 03:27 PM
#174
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Oooo, Paul do you have a web link? As i have the laptop, and have just ordered the serial link adapter, so can log the data.
However, no doubt this will not be a trusted source for the "power figures"
Steven
However, no doubt this will not be a trusted source for the "power figures"
Steven
22 May 2003, 04:28 PM
#176
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Found it, downloaded the 30 day trial
Guess i will be having fun this weekend then
.... oh, just remembered too many things to do, oh well, will have to find time
Steven
Guess i will be having fun this weekend then
.... oh, just remembered too many things to do, oh well, will have to find time
Steven
22 May 2003, 08:08 PM
#178
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Interesting reading..
Steven,
Did you notice any loss of low down torque when you swapped from 2.5 to 3inch downpipe??
Difficult to tell on the graphs if the boost was coming in later on the RR.
I must stop reading this board and thinking about a FMIC and upping my boost as my wife would kill me...
JGM
Steven,
Did you notice any loss of low down torque when you swapped from 2.5 to 3inch downpipe??
Difficult to tell on the graphs if the boost was coming in later on the RR.
I must stop reading this board and thinking about a FMIC and upping my boost as my wife would kill me...
JGM
22 May 2003, 08:22 PM
#179
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No, did not notice any loss in torque, if anything more, as you will know, it suddenly developed torque steer and wheelspin through 2nd
Boost comes in at the same point on the graphs at well, so is a fair comparison for MY car, although on the road, it comes in a good 1000rpm lower.
Steven
Boost comes in at the same point on the graphs at well, so is a fair comparison for MY car, although on the road, it comes in a good 1000rpm lower.
Steven
22 May 2003, 08:38 PM
#180
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Steven,
I do recall that, I could hear it up the road!
But that was the rest of the system.. you had the 3inch downpipe instead of the 2.5inch before that with the other exhaust on that you probably do not want reminding about.. then the Hyper...
am I making any sense..
I think you answered it anyway
Cheers
Simon
I do recall that, I could hear it up the road!
But that was the rest of the system.. you had the 3inch downpipe instead of the 2.5inch before that with the other exhaust on that you probably do not want reminding about.. then the Hyper...
am I making any sense..
I think you answered it anyway
Cheers
Simon