carlos_hiraoka

Anyone can get the guys from TEG to read again this thread ?????

Carlos H.

TEG Sport

Carlos

Thanks for your comments on this. I've passed your thoughts onto the team that deal with the mechanical side of things here (I only look after the electronics!) and they are going to do some test on what differance the oil temp makes to the diff.

However, that aside - we did have 2 of the units in cars on the 'Colin McRae Forest Stages Rally' last weekend (and no before you ask, Colins MKII Escort was not one of them !) and both drivers reported that the car was handling much better with the system enabled, and that it was consistant all day. There times also showed great improvement. I think the longest stage was about 12miles, so you would that after 12miles of hard driving, the gerabox oil would be about as warm as it will get. These are only my thoughts on it though, like I said - I'm not the expert on this.

We are looking at this, but have no firm results yet. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this ? Perhaps someone with more mechanical expertise than me !!

Andy

johnfelstead

On tarmac road use i cant see it being much of an issue to be honest. You only get heat buildup when you have big diferences in front/rear grip, by heat buildup i mean excessive heat requiring coolers. A lot depends on ambient temperature too. When we imported the turkish championship winning GroupA car, we had to remove the gearbox and front/rear diff coolers because the oil wasnt getting hot enough in the UK with coolers installed.

Unless you do testing in the environment and aplication that the product will be used, you cant give an answer. Incedentaly i mailed townend at the weekend offering to do some testing for them at the nurburgring, i havent had a response!

TEG Sport

John,

First - thanks for your thoughts on the oil temp etc.

Second - I must appolagise for us not getting back to you. Stuart did mention your e-mail to me on Monday - but with one thing and another (we are having the workshops & offices re-fitted and it's chaos!) we seem to have forgotten about it! I'll speak to Stuart first thing tomorrow, and get something sorted out.

Many Thanks

Andy

TEG Sport

Carlos

Thanks for your interest and comments. You can't use the standard thumbwheel control to select the 'Mode' on the new unit. This is because the thumbwheel is a simple potentiometer and has no defined positions, so it would not be possible to precisely select a map. The switch we use has 5 'clicks' and so you can tell exactly which mode you are in.

I'm not sure which Gp.N reg you are referring to that would not allow you to fit a switch. After all, they don't mind you fitting a switch for spotlights - so why would the type of switch be a problem ? ( I might be wrong here - I'm not an expert on the Gp.N regs - can any one advise ??)

The Standard version uses only one map and a simple toggle switch to enable the system. With the system enabled, the unit follows whatever map is currently loaded in the unit. With the system disabled, the diff is controlled by the original thumbwheel as per the standard car. If you think that having the 5 position switch is a problem, you could use this option, but you would have to plug the unit into a laptop and upload a differant map if you wanted to change the settings.

Hope this helps. Any further queries, please let me know.

Andy

Adam M

I am seriously interested in this, but am not a good enough driver to immediately tell massive differences, plus I will need time to get used to the standard car again.

john or others, would you mind posting feedback on how this affects road use once you give it a try?

carlos_hiraoka

Andy, I have mailed TEG (info@townendgarage.co.uk) hope you can check it out .....

Carlos H.

carlos_hiraoka

..... I am also waiting for a reply (I did receive a confirmation from my email server that the mail was received) ..... maybe their email server is down ?????

Carlos H.

Stuart Newby

John you have mail and a diff controller put to one side for you, we are just testing a few things at the moment.

To Everyone:

We are very busy at the moment testing as we have a guy from Australia coming over with our new development gear box and we have been sorting alot of things out for him. We have also been testing the diff controller. We have a test day booked next Saturday which may be interesting to alot of people.

We are also re-designing and knocking our offices and reception at work to pieces at the moment to make it more efficient in the long run and making it easier to reply to mail more quickly and answer the queries by phone. We are putting another telephone system in so that we have more lines available - so hopefully no more engaged tone for you lads. We are also going to display some of the components we have for sale and have put in a new stores to make it easier to check our stocks and let you know if we have the parts available - we are trying - honestly!!

I apologise for the delays in replying to everyone and know this is one of our weak spots in our business and we are also addressing this.

Andy and Stuart will sort out your replies as soon as possible.

Thanks for your patience,

Lynn.


Also Carlos it is very disappointing that you do not seem to have anything good to say about our company or it's products but Andy will be replying to your extensive e-mail as soon as possible.

Thanks.

carlos_hiraoka

Lynn I think you got me wrong, I am really interested and apprecitte the effort you have placed on making such a niece piece of kit at a affordable price, you should have heard how much Pro...ve wanted for a similar kit. My comments regarding the gearbox oil temp, were purely based upon our own experience with the first units that were bought from a known rally tuner ..... like John said it also depends on the use and other factors such as the length of our special stages here and our local temperature.

Regards,

Carlos H.

David_Wallis

Johnfelsted wrote...

Dont suppose the car got very warm at all without a gearbox

David

johnfelstead

very witty David!

Thanks for the mail and info here Lynn! I'll give Stuart a call Monday, like yourselves things are a bit hectic with me doing the elvington top10 shootout tomorrow, i have just got in from installing an STi anti surge fuelpump assembly to the car and have to be gone an hour ago! LOL

No problems re the response, i know what it's like when your preping stuff for competition etc as deadlines cant be moved.

Next weekend sounds interesting!

cheers
john

hrubago

Whats the final price for Electr. diff ECU for standard Impreza Turbo UK users? (if I understand correctly, I need electromagnetic center diff + wiring + maping)

MorayMackenzie

...plus confirmation that this device will work happily alongside ABS without shutting down the ABS system everytime you get it sideways.

carlos_hiraoka

any news ?????

Carlos H.

johnfelstead

I have just got home from a days testing up in the lakes with Andy and the guys from townend. They had a few customer rally cars there plus their own and were demoing some new gearbox's and diffs plus the centre diff controller.

The location wasnt any good for testing how it would work on tarmac, but at least i got the chance to have a look at the system working on a gravel rally car and also have a look at the way it can be mapped.

It was good to see that by changing the map it did have a definate effect on how drivable the car was on the loose, and that it could be tailored to suit individual driving styles.

Next stage is to get a system on my car so i can have a go at mapping it to how i would like. I have a couple of ideas that would make it more roadcar oriented, which andy is open to trying.

It looks like it has plenty of potential for an aplication in roadcars/trackdays. Although the mapping software is in its early stages, it still looks very easy to me to work with.

carlos_hiraoka

Thanks John for the news .....

Carlos H.

TEG Sport

Hi All,

First I'd like to say thanks to John, for taking the time to come up and see us on our test day. The day was aimed at the 'rally boys' and like John said the surface wasn't suitable for any tarmac testing - but at least he's seen the unit and software in action !

John had some good ideas about using the road speed sensor, to alter the mapping. (John - I've had a look at the hardware this morning, and I've got room to get the input into the unit without to much hassle!)

We've still not had anyone give us a reason as to why we couldn't use the system on a car with ABS. Our mechanical guys don't see any reason as to why it won't work. And if I get chance, i'm going to simulate it all on the bench with the ABS controller to see how it behaves.

If we get the road speed input in to the unit, ( as John suggests) I'm toying with the idea of doing a simple form of 'Launch Control' i.e. Hit a button - get fully locked diffs until the road speed gets past a certain point - then revert back to normal operation. Does anyone think this would be worth doing ?

Let me know what you all think.

Andy

johnfelstead

Good to meet you Andy, Thanks to Lynn and Stuart for their hospitality. Drop me a mail with your email address or give me a call so we can have a proper talk about it.

I would think for a drag race environment a very simple map using the speed input would be best, where as the speed increases the lock gets taken away to revert to RWD, that way you get the benefit of a good launch yet dont have the transmition losses of the front diff as the speed increases and grip no longer becomes an issue.

Where a launch control would be very handy is in sprinting and hillclimbing, where you still need a normal type of diff map, yet want an overide facility for the launch.

I think a speed input allows you far more control over the balance of the car. I can see it being useful on the loose too where you have a high speed event with long straights such as the Dukeries rally, which has lots of 120MPH flat out sections into 90 degree hairpins.

Mellow Yellow !

iTrader: (1)

John,

Is the above different to what Steve Simpson mapped into my GEMS on my RA V Ltd ?

johnfelstead

yes, very! (although i am not sure what stratagy steve has used, but you have a set map (not even sure if it has a 3D map at all), i dont think your system has a brake input either?)

This is a programmable unit that allows me to map how the diff works, using throttle position, handbrake, footbrake, revs and soon speed inputs. You can store 3 maps (plus fully open and fully locked) selectable from a dash switch, plus upload as many more as you like from a laptop.

It uses a 3D map and i can change how much lock it gives in situations such as trailing throttle, brakes, full throttle, partial throttle, all referenced to the RPM the engine is using.

I think it's got a lot of potential for fast road/track/sprinting use.

TEG Sport

Hi All

The system that Steve uses on the Gems version 5 ECU is a simple 2D table that links throttle position to 'Diff Load'. In theory you can connect a brake input which will release the diff. The big problem with this is this - it is fine if you connect it to your handbrake (you want the diff fully unloaded to allow the rear wheels to lock with as little effect on the fronts as possible) but if you let off the throttle and apply the footbrake, the diff still unloads, resulting in the car feeling 'nervous' (to quote a user of the said system !)

Like John says, the system we have developed allows you to setup everything to the way you want it. On our last test day on Saturday, one guy that tried it in the test car did not like the way it was handling. So I went round the test with him and he told me how HE wanted the car to behave - I changed the map - result, one VERY happy driver !

It seems that no two people like the car to behave the same way ! But the unit will allow you to get it the way YOU want it, as long as you put a bit of time into it.

With the help of people like John, we hope to have some 'base' maps to get people off to a good start.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the ABS query. John - do you know anyone who might have some input on this ? Coming from a rally background, ABS is one of the first things we put in the bin !!

Andy

johnfelstead

I am not aware of anyone who has a centre diff controller and ABS?

The only reason i can see it being a problem is where you have dramatic wheel speed diferences, but in those circumstances your on the power, not the brakes so i cant see why that would affect the ABS.

Impreza's fitted with the centre diff controler have rear hub assemblies that dont have any facility for installing ABS sensors. They also have mechanical front/rear diffs. It could be that the locking nature of a mechanical diff on heavy braking whilst cornering could screw up the ABS system. Maybe they didnt fit it because the whole point behind the typeR/RA is competition homologation and ABS is a disadvantage there. As i understand it, in GroupN, if the ABS is on the homologated car, you have to run that system on the rally, which isnt ideal.

using a viscous rear diff and open front diff like in the UK turbo, i cant think of a reason why you couldnt use ABS and install the electric centre diff unit, but its dangerous to asume it would work, the only real answer is to test it.

Adam M

John, if that was the case they coul have retained the centre diff on the P1 and use the r160 rear diff with abs still.

Its one of those anomolies, for example there are some 22bs out there which have an airag and abs, how I dont know.

Some sti 3 type rs had the centre diff control but came with an r160 rear diff. i dont know if these had abs also though.

Was told they were mutually exclusive and always have been.

One more thing john, on our cars with no abs, do we still have a wheel speed sensor? or do we rely on the signal input to the speedo from the outtake of the gearbox?

MorayMackenzie

TEGSport,

I have a pretty good idea of one fairly major problem you are likely to encounter running the adjustable diff alongside ABS. I have a good idea about how to solve it to. Contact me offline if you want to discuss it.


Adam,

No, you won't have individual wheelspeed sensors on yours.


Moray
bbs.22b.com

johnfelstead

why the secrecy moray? Dont you want everyone to share knowlege? The speed trigger is always from the gearbox adam.

johnfelstead

i would think the only reason they based the P1 on the STi5 TypeR was to get the body shape and engine, they didnt want a centre diff that gave juddering when being used in the locking positions because the average joe UK buyer of the P1 wouldnt accept that. Same goes with the rear and front diffs. Mr joe public in the UK wants a soft car to drive, he isnt interested in raw performance. This is all IMHO of course. Best not take this down the P1 v STi route though as it usually ends up in a scrap.

Adam M

john, the signal for the wheel speed on abs comes from a hall effect probe on each wheel hub, I was wondering if you were going to use that speed sensor.

MorayMackenzie

John,

Re: "why the secrecy moray? Dont you want everyone to share knowlege? The speed trigger is always from the gearbox adam. "

Possibly yes, on this one occasion, I might actually prefer to discuss my ideas with TEG Sport directly at first. Why the red face on your post?

Moray
bbs.22b.com

[Edited by MorayMackenzie - 8/13/2002 3:28:41 PM]

johnfelstead

I know it does adam, but the speed trigger to the ECU/dash always comes from the gearbox. the ECU recieves a square wave pulse from the gearbox, i use this to trigger my TSD rally computer, it seems reliable to 100MPH, i am not sure how quickly i would need to be going to cause it to swamp the input to the laptop. Ideally i want the speed trigger to be fine upto 150MPH as thats the speed i see at the ring. Thinking about it, the trigger signal must be OK otherwise the speedo wouldnt function, so it's limit is down to the input hardware.

no reason for the other than i felt like it.

Come on, you know you want to tell us all moray.


[Edited by johnfelstead - 8/13/2002 3:39:32 PM]