Getting more than 400 hp out of your Impreza!!!
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hi anthony
couple of points that are needing clarifying.
a stroker kit uses the same 2l block and changes the displacment so you can get 2.2 or 2.4l.
2.2l is a legacy block and therefor it will not be a straight swap.
2.5l block is the US spec non turbo charged impreza. so again it will not fit straight on as the headers and so on will be different.
sll the above items will not work proporely with the standard ECU.
I think a stroker kit lets say 2.2l will be a good start. then you need to get a nice big turbo garrett if you can afford it or a hybrid VF22 ( SOMETHING BIG ANYWAY) remember you have got more displacment so the car will have more grunt low down anyway. then add a fmic and oil cooler. port the headers and manifold run it at 1.5-1.6 bar and voila you have a lot of power 350-360bhp maybe slightly more. now kiss you clutch and gear box good by
you probably don't want them any way as they are ****. and mrt gear box and ap clutch, that will do thank you very much. no all the strain is on the diffs so some uprated quiaff one will do fine.
few misconceptions
1. stis comes to the UK with more than the 276bhp.....hhhhhhhh no you will be lucky to get 260bhp on the UK fuel
2. subarus are designed to handle more than 300bhp ............no why should it ?it is a rally car.
3. rally cars with out restrictors will fly ....no torque figures will drop hence the car will be slower. also the cams are different and they don't rev more than 6000rpm.
finally it all depends on WHO IS DOING IT . more than anything else.
good luck and keep us posted.
you never mentioned your budget though ?
sam
couple of points that are needing clarifying.
a stroker kit uses the same 2l block and changes the displacment so you can get 2.2 or 2.4l.
2.2l is a legacy block and therefor it will not be a straight swap.
2.5l block is the US spec non turbo charged impreza. so again it will not fit straight on as the headers and so on will be different.
sll the above items will not work proporely with the standard ECU.
I think a stroker kit lets say 2.2l will be a good start. then you need to get a nice big turbo garrett if you can afford it or a hybrid VF22 ( SOMETHING BIG ANYWAY) remember you have got more displacment so the car will have more grunt low down anyway. then add a fmic and oil cooler. port the headers and manifold run it at 1.5-1.6 bar and voila you have a lot of power 350-360bhp maybe slightly more. now kiss you clutch and gear box good by
you probably don't want them any way as they are ****. and mrt gear box and ap clutch, that will do thank you very much. no all the strain is on the diffs so some uprated quiaff one will do fine. few misconceptions
1. stis comes to the UK with more than the 276bhp.....hhhhhhhh no you will be lucky to get 260bhp on the UK fuel
2. subarus are designed to handle more than 300bhp ............no why should it ?it is a rally car.
3. rally cars with out restrictors will fly ....no torque figures will drop hence the car will be slower. also the cams are different and they don't rev more than 6000rpm.
finally it all depends on WHO IS DOING IT . more than anything else.
good luck and keep us posted.
you never mentioned your budget though ?
sam
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I'm sure this must depend partially on how much abuse the car is given mustn't it? I mean, how long would a standard Impreza last if you kept on revving it and dropping the clutch? I would imagine that the stresses and strains placed on a vehicle must differ considerably depending on the conditions & driver (common sense really!). We've seen it with stis on trackdays - suddenly the extra stress throws up issues that were never seen in less mad road based scenarios.
In everyday use, it would seem to me that the most stress and strain placed on the car would be acceleration from rest - the bit between standstill and third gear. The extra power / torque would have much less of an impact on the car at 60mph where the gear ratios are higher etc. On the other hand, sometimes these things are completely the opposite of what you think! I do know, however, that some powerful trucks have torque limiters installed that restrict the power of the engine until the vehicle is travelling above a certain speed. I'm not sure whether that is actually to protect the engine, but it sounds good!
Despite all of this, I'm still no closer to working out the best way of getting the magic figures out of my car!!
In everyday use, it would seem to me that the most stress and strain placed on the car would be acceleration from rest - the bit between standstill and third gear. The extra power / torque would have much less of an impact on the car at 60mph where the gear ratios are higher etc. On the other hand, sometimes these things are completely the opposite of what you think! I do know, however, that some powerful trucks have torque limiters installed that restrict the power of the engine until the vehicle is travelling above a certain speed. I'm not sure whether that is actually to protect the engine, but it sounds good!
Despite all of this, I'm still no closer to working out the best way of getting the magic figures out of my car!!
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Sam,
Thanks for all the advice - budget is a tricky one. I am reasonably flexible but don't want to spend an absolute wodge for minimal extra returns. On the other hand, if someone can persuade me that there is a good reason to spend double the amount then I'd doubtless be up for it!!! Can you give me an idea of the costs for these things? I'm still in the planning stages - in the short term I'm looking at a hybrid turbo & water injection in the short term (any advice on these?! Is the VF22 the best one to go for?), probably followed by some suspension and then, in the futurue, a look at something a bit more radical. The timescales and what gets done depend on the relative advantages in terms of driveability compared with the costs so I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on the best way to approach this stuff!!
From what you say, it sounds like a stroker kit is the "easiest" way to extend the the capacity of the engine. What are the disadvantages of it? Why didn't Subaru make the Impreza 2.2l engine from the beginning?! The only thing that has mentioned about them is the fact that it reduces the revability of the engine - is it noticeable with a 50cc increase per cylinder?
A couple of questions:
- Where does the oil cooler go? Do you still need it if you're running water injection?
- What is a FMIC - front mounted intercooler? Are they really necessary? I've heard that the Subaru IC is very good (especially when you add a water spray).
- Will the open deck block be an issue? Is it worth starting with a close deck or can the engine cope with 1.5-1.6 bar?
Thanks for all the info guys - I'm soaking it up like a sponge. A plan is gradually formulating in my head, but I'm relying on you people out there who know what they're talking about!
Thanks for all the advice - budget is a tricky one. I am reasonably flexible but don't want to spend an absolute wodge for minimal extra returns. On the other hand, if someone can persuade me that there is a good reason to spend double the amount then I'd doubtless be up for it!!! Can you give me an idea of the costs for these things? I'm still in the planning stages - in the short term I'm looking at a hybrid turbo & water injection in the short term (any advice on these?! Is the VF22 the best one to go for?), probably followed by some suspension and then, in the futurue, a look at something a bit more radical. The timescales and what gets done depend on the relative advantages in terms of driveability compared with the costs so I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on the best way to approach this stuff!!
From what you say, it sounds like a stroker kit is the "easiest" way to extend the the capacity of the engine. What are the disadvantages of it? Why didn't Subaru make the Impreza 2.2l engine from the beginning?! The only thing that has mentioned about them is the fact that it reduces the revability of the engine - is it noticeable with a 50cc increase per cylinder?
A couple of questions:
- Where does the oil cooler go? Do you still need it if you're running water injection?
- What is a FMIC - front mounted intercooler? Are they really necessary? I've heard that the Subaru IC is very good (especially when you add a water spray).
- Will the open deck block be an issue? Is it worth starting with a close deck or can the engine cope with 1.5-1.6 bar?
Thanks for all the info guys - I'm soaking it up like a sponge. A plan is gradually formulating in my head, but I'm relying on you people out there who know what they're talking about!
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hi anthony
i would really say i know what i am talking about as i have never tried most of these types of modifications. firefox have tried a lot of different components but he does not say much on the BBS these days.
subaru can't make the impreza 2.2l as it is because of rally type approval kind of regulations. all rally cars are 2.0l.
closed deck is theoratically better. so you want it if you spending that much money.
you get a lot of information about what to do in aussie land. unfortunatley in here it is guess work.
. and in aussi they will go, exhaust, turbo, fmic, link/ unichip/motec in this order before going internal. one of the most important thing about turbo charged car is the heat build up.
the late impreza intercooler is not bad but areyou asking something that is designed to cope with 250bhp max to cope with 400bhp ? WI is good but FMIC with WI is even better.
roughly
motec £2000-2300 or link with custom chip £1500 not sure about that one.
stroker kit £2000-3000
FMIC ( front mounted IC) £800-1200
turbo any thing really from £800 - £2500 for the beautiful HKS GT SERIES. if you want big power ( 1.5 bar) you need big turbo. big turbo mean more lag. so shorter gearing and different cams will help.
cams sti3 suppose to be the best!! but who knows until you have tried them. £700-800
headers and manifold porting + turbo up pipe ?? or get the HKS one for £800-900
+ labour+ hire car so you get the idea.
a good thing is to pick up the phone and phone some of the Austrailian tuning companies and ask them what they do. if 2-3 of them agree on the same tuning pathway, it must be right then. it is not that expensive to call australia 3-4p per minute.
the thing is i remember reading that Ander's car got rebuilt with the best parts you could get at the time. but i also remember reading that it blew up on track!! so who really knows.
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 08 June 2001).]
i would really say i know what i am talking about as i have never tried most of these types of modifications. firefox have tried a lot of different components but he does not say much on the BBS these days.
subaru can't make the impreza 2.2l as it is because of rally type approval kind of regulations. all rally cars are 2.0l.
closed deck is theoratically better. so you want it if you spending that much money.
you get a lot of information about what to do in aussie land. unfortunatley in here it is guess work.
. and in aussi they will go, exhaust, turbo, fmic, link/ unichip/motec in this order before going internal. one of the most important thing about turbo charged car is the heat build up. the late impreza intercooler is not bad but areyou asking something that is designed to cope with 250bhp max to cope with 400bhp ? WI is good but FMIC with WI is even better.
roughly
motec £2000-2300 or link with custom chip £1500 not sure about that one.
stroker kit £2000-3000
FMIC ( front mounted IC) £800-1200
turbo any thing really from £800 - £2500 for the beautiful HKS GT SERIES. if you want big power ( 1.5 bar) you need big turbo. big turbo mean more lag. so shorter gearing and different cams will help.
cams sti3 suppose to be the best!! but who knows until you have tried them. £700-800
headers and manifold porting + turbo up pipe ?? or get the HKS one for £800-900
+ labour+ hire car so you get the idea.
a good thing is to pick up the phone and phone some of the Austrailian tuning companies and ask them what they do. if 2-3 of them agree on the same tuning pathway, it must be right then.
it is not that expensive to call australia 3-4p per minute.the thing is i remember reading that Ander's car got rebuilt with the best parts you could get at the time. but i also remember reading that it blew up on track!! so who really knows.
[This message has been edited by Sam Elassar (edited 08 June 2001).]
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Sam,
I am onfused as how you get a 2.4 litre because stroking a 2.2 doesnt give 2.4.
On top of that, the 2.2 block in the 22B fits to everything else that is standard sti, so you can get a 2.2 block to work with the existing stuff anthony already has.
On top of this, the closed deck block isnt theoretically better, it is better, simply by being stronger.
Having looked at an open deck block there is no way I would risk putting these kind of power figures through it.
Do you know the origins of the 22b engine which is believed to be closed deck, would have to ask warren heath or anders if he knows this one, perhaps harj can shed some light or even richard squires. Because unless subaru designed a new cast just for a run of 424 22Bs, the block had to already exist somewhere. I would supsect legacy origins.
Without doubt the man to talk to here is Firefox. Dont know if it is worth trying as he is a man in demand, and very difficult to get hold of. I personally don't like to bother him with such talk, and he is a friend of mine
.
Anthony,
for stroker experience speak to autosportif who swear by this method of increasing power.
They also have good engine builders with much experience in this. As I said before they are expensive, but if good enough for Nikki Grist, I suspect they may be good enough for you or me.
Craig Hardman of New Age motorsport fame has a stroker kit in his old car.
Ask him for his impression, although his car is out of action for some resaon
The issues with the stroker are a matter of choice. Few people complain about the lack of reviness after fitting. Pat has expressed concern at the longer stroke exposing the gudgeon pin beneath the bottom of the block, which could create wear problems, but autosportif have their own opinions on this.
You have a choice of kits, which give different capacities, some requiring an over bore to give 2.2.
There is also the effect on the compression ratio, which will affect the revability of the engine, but also te low down torque. this will require mapping, as the ignition will need to be modified to compensate, meaning you will need a mappable ecu.
2.5 is interesting, but matching up of the heads to the block makes things much more difficult. STI heads will not do, and therefore 2.5 are required.
One easyish option, is to buy a complete 2.5 impreza rs enine from the states and bolt a turbo on it.
There is a wealth of american experience on this, and they seem to be lasting very well. You could start here as a base, and then modify internals to suit.
FMIC, will not be a necessity, but when spending money in other areas, it would be foolish to not do the more simple thigs first, for the best gains.
I am onfused as how you get a 2.4 litre because stroking a 2.2 doesnt give 2.4.
On top of that, the 2.2 block in the 22B fits to everything else that is standard sti, so you can get a 2.2 block to work with the existing stuff anthony already has.
On top of this, the closed deck block isnt theoretically better, it is better, simply by being stronger.
Having looked at an open deck block there is no way I would risk putting these kind of power figures through it.
Do you know the origins of the 22b engine which is believed to be closed deck, would have to ask warren heath or anders if he knows this one, perhaps harj can shed some light or even richard squires. Because unless subaru designed a new cast just for a run of 424 22Bs, the block had to already exist somewhere. I would supsect legacy origins.
Without doubt the man to talk to here is Firefox. Dont know if it is worth trying as he is a man in demand, and very difficult to get hold of. I personally don't like to bother him with such talk, and he is a friend of mine
.Anthony,
for stroker experience speak to autosportif who swear by this method of increasing power.
They also have good engine builders with much experience in this. As I said before they are expensive, but if good enough for Nikki Grist, I suspect they may be good enough for you or me.
Craig Hardman of New Age motorsport fame has a stroker kit in his old car.
Ask him for his impression, although his car is out of action for some resaon
The issues with the stroker are a matter of choice. Few people complain about the lack of reviness after fitting. Pat has expressed concern at the longer stroke exposing the gudgeon pin beneath the bottom of the block, which could create wear problems, but autosportif have their own opinions on this.
You have a choice of kits, which give different capacities, some requiring an over bore to give 2.2.
There is also the effect on the compression ratio, which will affect the revability of the engine, but also te low down torque. this will require mapping, as the ignition will need to be modified to compensate, meaning you will need a mappable ecu.
2.5 is interesting, but matching up of the heads to the block makes things much more difficult. STI heads will not do, and therefore 2.5 are required.
One easyish option, is to buy a complete 2.5 impreza rs enine from the states and bolt a turbo on it.
There is a wealth of american experience on this, and they seem to be lasting very well. You could start here as a base, and then modify internals to suit.
FMIC, will not be a necessity, but when spending money in other areas, it would be foolish to not do the more simple thigs first, for the best gains.
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Joined: Mar 2000
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
I have flitted through this thread with great interest, and excuse me if I go on about things that have already been mentioned!
One thing that stands out is going to be anybodys ability to be able to build a Scooby engine that can take circa 450bhp/450lbft, and be reliable!! It sounds that people posting here seem to think this is more than feasible. I very much have my doubts at a reasonable cost. Surely, many professional tuning companies are trying to get to these ratings (with more development funds and experience that you or i), but I can't say i've heard much about saying it's been acheived. I'm not saying it won't or can't be done, but experiments and gossip around, suggest otherwise.....reliably!!!
With all things being well, my Escort will be undergoing some tickling
, and after several conversations with people, I now have a better idea of what is involved.
People have mentioned transmission, and this has to be a major concern for the Scoobys. I cant see how it is possible for a standard Scoobs tranny to be able to take more than 330 real bhp. I mean have you seen the size of the rear diff....it's puny!!!!
For the mods i'm looking at, I need to go for:
Quaife straight cut box @ circa £2600
Quaife ATB front diff @ circa £800
Modded rear 2wd 7 1/2 diff
Now that amounts to about £3600.00 just on tranmission. For the power i'm going to, this is deemed as essential for long term reliability. Surely thats what we all want. And gives you an insight to what power levels i'm looking at.........but of course that will remain close to my chest until it's been done. Now I know this isn't cheap (and doesn't include the £5000.00 engine), but if this is the price for reliability (the same as what I have now), then so be it.
Best of luck to you Scoobs.......your gonna need it!!!!
Regards,
Shaun.
One thing that stands out is going to be anybodys ability to be able to build a Scooby engine that can take circa 450bhp/450lbft, and be reliable!! It sounds that people posting here seem to think this is more than feasible. I very much have my doubts at a reasonable cost. Surely, many professional tuning companies are trying to get to these ratings (with more development funds and experience that you or i), but I can't say i've heard much about saying it's been acheived. I'm not saying it won't or can't be done, but experiments and gossip around, suggest otherwise.....reliably!!!
With all things being well, my Escort will be undergoing some tickling
, and after several conversations with people, I now have a better idea of what is involved.People have mentioned transmission, and this has to be a major concern for the Scoobys. I cant see how it is possible for a standard Scoobs tranny to be able to take more than 330 real bhp. I mean have you seen the size of the rear diff....it's puny!!!!
For the mods i'm looking at, I need to go for:
Quaife straight cut box @ circa £2600
Quaife ATB front diff @ circa £800
Modded rear 2wd 7 1/2 diff
Now that amounts to about £3600.00 just on tranmission. For the power i'm going to, this is deemed as essential for long term reliability. Surely thats what we all want. And gives you an insight to what power levels i'm looking at.........but of course that will remain close to my chest until it's been done.
Now I know this isn't cheap (and doesn't include the £5000.00 engine), but if this is the price for reliability (the same as what I have now), then so be it.Best of luck to you Scoobs.......your gonna need it!!!!
Regards,
Shaun.
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Shaun you are completely right, it isnt going to be cheap by any means.
Transmission is going to cost a fortune. Diffs need to be upgraded, but I dont think they are a specific weakpoint. It will cost, but such problems can be overcome, they have been in japan.
I take your point about the tuners aswell. But these people normally only take on a project like this if people are willing to pay for it. I dont know of many people who want this done or are willing to pay for it, which is why it hasnt been done yet.
It has in japan.
My plans for my engine are going to cost me thousands, which I cant afford, but my plan is to buy the components with a final goal in mind, whilst still exploiting my standard engine. Once all the bits have been bought, then I will switch engines, getting it built professionally at that point, thereby saving money by not letting the tuning company make the profit on the hardware, only on the labour.
Transmission is going to cost a fortune. Diffs need to be upgraded, but I dont think they are a specific weakpoint. It will cost, but such problems can be overcome, they have been in japan.
I take your point about the tuners aswell. But these people normally only take on a project like this if people are willing to pay for it. I dont know of many people who want this done or are willing to pay for it, which is why it hasnt been done yet.
It has in japan.
My plans for my engine are going to cost me thousands, which I cant afford, but my plan is to buy the components with a final goal in mind, whilst still exploiting my standard engine. Once all the bits have been bought, then I will switch engines, getting it built professionally at that point, thereby saving money by not letting the tuning company make the profit on the hardware, only on the labour.
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hello peeps..
You guys are right and wrong about different things.. IMHO
The 22b block is an EJ22 (legacy ) phase I block, mated to STI IV heads.
You can interchange the blocks.
The main differences between phase I and phase II blocks for fitment onto the transmission are the number of bolts and the starter motor mount... but they are still interchange with each other (a bit of tweaking is required).
Autosportif claim they dont like the 2.2 block because of crank case pressure build up. Havent figure out why they claim this.. maybe larger pistons..but this isnt a problem with 100mm bores....weird
Sam.. an AP clutch will not hold that power (well none of the currently available off the shelf AP clutches).
the transmission is the weak point... but you should measure the rating by torque... not BHP
The later IC's are about 75-80'ish % effecient.. but this effeciency will change, based on flow, etc..
Craigs car is out of action due to an oil pressur eissue.. it is currently being resolved
I am puzzled by the "reviness" issue with stroker kits.. aslong as the mass is the same, and the compression isnt changed, they should be the same (virtually). The increase in stroke isnt that large
The limiting factor with stroke isnt the gudgeon pin.. but the oil scrapper ring, crossing over the gudgeon pin hole... you could just get away with this.. but definately not with the second ring.
Some stroker kits run a higher or compressed ring land.. but its a compromise of stroke against piston/ring land strength.
The transmission is the weak link.. I have spent k's uprated mine... and I know the drive shafts will now be the weak link.. but I'm keeping a few in stock.. lol
Teh subie diffs are small compared to some of the diffs available for the cossie (7.5 or even 9") but we have to deal with what we have got
I dont know why, but the tuning culture in this country seems well behind that of other places like Oz or Japan.
No one seems willing to bite the bullet and go for it.
A few tuning companies have been stung by mis-happens with scoobs (like they have with Cossies) and as such dont touch them any more.. or keep a low profile about it.
Any car, when applied with the right amount of money has great potentials for becoming something special. But there are always teething problems.
Rigolis have had to redo there engine and transmission many times.. so have Jun.. just that you dont always here about it
Anyway.. I'll go back to my sad little hole.
J.
You guys are right and wrong about different things.. IMHO
The 22b block is an EJ22 (legacy ) phase I block, mated to STI IV heads.
You can interchange the blocks.
The main differences between phase I and phase II blocks for fitment onto the transmission are the number of bolts and the starter motor mount... but they are still interchange with each other (a bit of tweaking is required).
Autosportif claim they dont like the 2.2 block because of crank case pressure build up. Havent figure out why they claim this.. maybe larger pistons..but this isnt a problem with 100mm bores....weird
Sam.. an AP clutch will not hold that power (well none of the currently available off the shelf AP clutches).
the transmission is the weak point... but you should measure the rating by torque... not BHP
The later IC's are about 75-80'ish % effecient.. but this effeciency will change, based on flow, etc..
Craigs car is out of action due to an oil pressur eissue.. it is currently being resolved
I am puzzled by the "reviness" issue with stroker kits.. aslong as the mass is the same, and the compression isnt changed, they should be the same (virtually). The increase in stroke isnt that large
The limiting factor with stroke isnt the gudgeon pin.. but the oil scrapper ring, crossing over the gudgeon pin hole... you could just get away with this.. but definately not with the second ring.
Some stroker kits run a higher or compressed ring land.. but its a compromise of stroke against piston/ring land strength.
The transmission is the weak link.. I have spent k's uprated mine... and I know the drive shafts will now be the weak link.. but I'm keeping a few in stock.. lol
Teh subie diffs are small compared to some of the diffs available for the cossie (7.5 or even 9") but we have to deal with what we have got
I dont know why, but the tuning culture in this country seems well behind that of other places like Oz or Japan.
No one seems willing to bite the bullet and go for it.
A few tuning companies have been stung by mis-happens with scoobs (like they have with Cossies) and as such dont touch them any more.. or keep a low profile about it.
Any car, when applied with the right amount of money has great potentials for becoming something special. But there are always teething problems.
Rigolis have had to redo there engine and transmission many times.. so have Jun.. just that you dont always here about it
Anyway.. I'll go back to my sad little hole.
J.
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
Adam,
"Transmission is going to cost a fortune. Diffs need to be upgraded, but I dont think they are a specific weakpoint. It will cost, but such problems can be overcome, they have been in japan."
The standard Escort tranny (minus the clutch), is rated to approx 370 ft/lb (I did mean that really J). I have been informed that for 420+ ft/lb it will cope (well the diffs will), but the wear will be GREATLY increased. I expect this is the same with the Scooby diffs, but I would expect (going soley by the actual size) that the upper most "Safe" torque limit to be even less?? The reason for the straightcut box, is for total reliability for the drag starts. Not that I do that stuff anymore.........but you know how it goes
"It has in japan."
Not to be sceptic....but has this been proven with engine dyno's. Not saying it hasn't, but would like to know!
I know that whenever I quote my new power (hopefully), it will always be based on the engine dyno graph........but thats another argument!!!
Regards,
Shaun.
"Transmission is going to cost a fortune. Diffs need to be upgraded, but I dont think they are a specific weakpoint. It will cost, but such problems can be overcome, they have been in japan."
The standard Escort tranny (minus the clutch), is rated to approx 370 ft/lb (I did mean that really J
). I have been informed that for 420+ ft/lb it will cope (well the diffs will), but the wear will be GREATLY increased. I expect this is the same with the Scooby diffs, but I would expect (going soley by the actual size) that the upper most "Safe" torque limit to be even less?? The reason for the straightcut box, is for total reliability for the drag starts. Not that I do that stuff anymore.........but you know how it goes "It has in japan."
Not to be sceptic....but has this been proven with engine dyno's. Not saying it hasn't, but would like to know!
I know that whenever I quote my new power (hopefully), it will always be based on the engine dyno graph........but thats another argument!!!
Regards,
Shaun.
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From: Greece, previously Syd Australia
Fella's IMHO anything over 350 bhp for a Scoob will require the car being at the garage more than you would like. Used to see them in OZ all the time. The same cars always there. One time it would be gearbox, one time clutch, diffs, engines and we're talking uprated stuff. Used to remind me of my car Ford V8 560hp. 3 engine rebuilds costing 10K pounds the first time to 4K pounds the next two. After making the bottom end bulletproof the valvetrain could not handle the power. Nothing was available for the valve train to become bulletproof.
What I want to say is lots and lots and lots of maintenance will be required lots of time and money. Be prepared if you go this route cause it doesn't stop.
WREXY.
What I want to say is lots and lots and lots of maintenance will be required lots of time and money. Be prepared if you go this route cause it doesn't stop.
WREXY.
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From: SSO2003 2nd, SSO2005 1st, SSO2006 2nd, TACC Rd4 5th 4wd: In my car ;-)
And while you're adding up the cost to get the 400bhp, don't forget to add about £1000 to sort the fuel system, and replace the injectors.......
The standard 440cc injectors (imports/UK '99 > ) aren't able to safely supply fuel for 350bhp, let alone 400bhp.
It's going to be interesting to see the results of the various projects, that are going on. It's a shame that it's been left to private individuals to do this, due to the lack of experience, of the so called UK tuning industry.
Mark.
The standard 440cc injectors (imports/UK '99 > ) aren't able to safely supply fuel for 350bhp, let alone 400bhp.
It's going to be interesting to see the results of the various projects, that are going on. It's a shame that it's been left to private individuals to do this, due to the lack of experience, of the so called UK tuning industry.
Mark.
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adam
sorry my mistake completely forgot about the 22b oops. so the 2.2l legacy block is a straight swap, interesting. so where can you get a closed deck 2.2l is it from a legacy or does it have to be a 22B. was it the early model legacy that had the closed deck ?
i never explained myself re the stroking. but as far as i know there is 2 stroker kits available a 2.2l AND a 2.4l ( which is getting developed in the uk ) i don't know if it has been tested or not though.
there is also the block from the new 2.5l legacy which is available now. will that be interchangeable ? or will it be the same as the US block ? any ideas
J
hallelujah the man has spoken.
are you insinuating that the subaru intercooler is ok for anything obove 300bhp ? every tuning company in japan and australia have got their own FMIC surely for a good reason. or otherwise why bother.
i think myself unless you build the car from scratch if you go over 350bhp you will endup with a lot of problems with the next weakest link somewhere. i know that bob's car was dyno'd at 350bhp at pe but it is a comparative thing. so on an engine dyno it will probably be slightly less. so even if it was 340bhp it extremely difficult to gain more power in the region of 60bhp after a certain limit every 5bhp becomes impossible.
sorry my mistake completely forgot about the 22b oops. so the 2.2l legacy block is a straight swap, interesting. so where can you get a closed deck 2.2l is it from a legacy or does it have to be a 22B. was it the early model legacy that had the closed deck ?
i never explained myself re the stroking. but as far as i know there is 2 stroker kits available a 2.2l AND a 2.4l ( which is getting developed in the uk ) i don't know if it has been tested or not though.
there is also the block from the new 2.5l legacy which is available now. will that be interchangeable ? or will it be the same as the US block ? any ideas
J
hallelujah the man has spoken.
are you insinuating that the subaru intercooler is ok for anything obove 300bhp ? every tuning company in japan and australia have got their own FMIC surely for a good reason. or otherwise why bother.
i think myself unless you build the car from scratch if you go over 350bhp you will endup with a lot of problems with the next weakest link somewhere. i know that bob's car was dyno'd at 350bhp at pe but it is a comparative thing. so on an engine dyno it will probably be slightly less. so even if it was 340bhp it extremely difficult to gain more power in the region of 60bhp
after a certain limit every 5bhp becomes impossible.
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From what you guys are saying I might be better off getting an Escort cossie instead!!! Or would I be sacrificing other aspects of the Scoobie's performance envelope for a more reliable increase in power?
To be honest, I had assumed that the total cost would be in the order of £10k - £15k, but I would want to spend that over time and hopefully gain pleasure from the incremental increases in performance!! The cost justification is simply that instead of trading my £14k car in and swapping it for a £25k+ Evo/P1, I'll make my current car more "individual" - in the long term, I probably won't lose much more money, but in the shorter term I might just have more fun! Having said all of that, I would never consider spending that much money unless the car I ended up with was 100% reliable. I would especially expect this, given that I don't take the car on track days and rarely perform any "standing start" related antics.
Perhaps my ambitions are unrealistic. I had imagined that given the car produces 280bhp (ish) as standard then a 25% increase to 350 would still be within the tolerances if the appropriate strengthening was applied (especially as the standard car is so reliable).
The 2.2 block route sounds interesting - especially given that I have a weak block to begin with which would probably require replacement. Can you stroke the 2.2? That would presumably get you up to almost 2.5l as a starting point. If I am going to spend a lot of time and money changing most of the engine, I think it would be prudent to try and get it to the biggest capacity possible. That way, presumably I'd have to run proportionally less boost for the same amount of grunt?
So in the short-term, given my current setup (Link + HKS), would I see much gain from Hybrid turbo + Water Injection / IC spray? Currently the car runs at just over 300bhp and similar torque (at PE). What turbo do people recommend - I'm not really clued up on the differences between the VF series. Are the Garret turbos better? What is Bob running - exhaust + turbo + Motec?
To be honest, I had assumed that the total cost would be in the order of £10k - £15k, but I would want to spend that over time and hopefully gain pleasure from the incremental increases in performance!! The cost justification is simply that instead of trading my £14k car in and swapping it for a £25k+ Evo/P1, I'll make my current car more "individual" - in the long term, I probably won't lose much more money, but in the shorter term I might just have more fun! Having said all of that, I would never consider spending that much money unless the car I ended up with was 100% reliable. I would especially expect this, given that I don't take the car on track days and rarely perform any "standing start" related antics.
Perhaps my ambitions are unrealistic. I had imagined that given the car produces 280bhp (ish) as standard then a 25% increase to 350 would still be within the tolerances if the appropriate strengthening was applied (especially as the standard car is so reliable).
The 2.2 block route sounds interesting - especially given that I have a weak block to begin with which would probably require replacement. Can you stroke the 2.2? That would presumably get you up to almost 2.5l as a starting point. If I am going to spend a lot of time and money changing most of the engine, I think it would be prudent to try and get it to the biggest capacity possible. That way, presumably I'd have to run proportionally less boost for the same amount of grunt?
So in the short-term, given my current setup (Link + HKS), would I see much gain from Hybrid turbo + Water Injection / IC spray? Currently the car runs at just over 300bhp and similar torque (at PE). What turbo do people recommend - I'm not really clued up on the differences between the VF series. Are the Garret turbos better? What is Bob running - exhaust + turbo + Motec?
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I have a cunning plan...
Why not go on Gran Turismo 2 and buy a bog standard Impreza Turbo and slowly modify it and see what BHP you can get out of it. I'm sure I modified an STI so it was running on around 409 BHP.
Surely the modifications on GT2 will be the real thing and the extra BHP each mod provides will be pretty realistic??
Just an idea...
Cheers,
Tom
[This message has been edited by Tom Evans (edited 09 June 2001).]
Why not go on Gran Turismo 2 and buy a bog standard Impreza Turbo and slowly modify it and see what BHP you can get out of it. I'm sure I modified an STI so it was running on around 409 BHP.
Surely the modifications on GT2 will be the real thing and the extra BHP each mod provides will be pretty realistic??
Just an idea...
Cheers,
Tom
[This message has been edited by Tom Evans (edited 09 June 2001).]
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hi anthony
i will check my GT2 for you. you see 350bhp is realistic and a hybrid vf22 and WATER INJECTION + FMIC should give around 350bhp and 350lb/ft. then if the engine blews up on you due to accelarated wear and tear, you can think about all the extra engine stuff. makes sense to me. this is the way i am doing it.
i will check my GT2 for you
. you see 350bhp is realistic and a hybrid vf22 and WATER INJECTION + FMIC should give around 350bhp and 350lb/ft. then if the engine blews up on you due to accelarated wear and tear, you can think about all the extra engine stuff. makes sense to me. this is the way i am doing it.
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The std gearbox can withstand up to 500 hp with no problems and 500 lb/ft the only thing you may get clutch slippage so you need to up grade there.
If you want to go DRAG racing then thats a new ball game.
So if you want to keep up to the Porsche you will also have to fix the steering problem!!!as if you dont you will end up in the ****
wouldnt like that.!!!
Rigolis has 551 hp @ the wheels or around 750 bhp so yes it can be done but thats for a different reason
After all its only money so how fast do you want to go ??????
If you want to go DRAG racing then thats a new ball game.
So if you want to keep up to the Porsche you will also have to fix the steering problem!!!as if you dont you will end up in the ****
wouldnt like that.!!!
Rigolis has 551 hp @ the wheels or around 750 bhp so yes it can be done but thats for a different reason
After all its only money so how fast do you want to go ??????
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
Anthony,
"From what you guys are saying I might be better off getting an Escort cossie instead!!! Or would I be sacrificing other aspects of the Scoobie's performance envelope for a more reliable increase in power?"
That could be the way to go!!! I truely believe that with attention put back into the handling (Billy suspension, strut braces, 4 pots etc etc), you wouldn't have any lesser of a capable car.........and have loads more power to boot!!!
Nitro,
"The std gearbox can withstand up to 500 hp with no problems and 500 lb/ft the only thing you may get clutch slippage so you need to up grade there."
Come on mate, what planet are you from!! I didn't realise that the standard bearings could take that torque
and that the guts were of a ZF standard.........silly me, they have ZF boxes in as standard don't they
Shaun.
"From what you guys are saying I might be better off getting an Escort cossie instead!!! Or would I be sacrificing other aspects of the Scoobie's performance envelope for a more reliable increase in power?"
That could be the way to go!!!
I truely believe that with attention put back into the handling (Billy suspension, strut braces, 4 pots etc etc), you wouldn't have any lesser of a capable car.........and have loads more power to boot!!! Nitro,
"The std gearbox can withstand up to 500 hp with no problems and 500 lb/ft the only thing you may get clutch slippage so you need to up grade there."
Come on mate, what planet are you from!! I didn't realise that the standard bearings could take that torque
and that the guts were of a ZF standard.........silly me, they have ZF boxes in as standard don't they Shaun.
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Why not consider sending the car to Japan for a proper and reliable mods? I know most ppl would think this is crazy, but it is really not a big deal, just ask a forwarder to hire a 20 foot container and its done...
Cheers
Cheers
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There is NO WAY the std trannie will take 500hp. With the power we're going for, I'm being warned left right and centre that the gearbox will go sooner rather than later!
I think anything between 330 and 350hp and you have seriously got to expect it to fail in a fairly short time. If you use the performance of course.
I don't understand the UK/OZ/Japan divide. Guess it's because a few people have dabbled who don't know what they're doing, blown a few and all of a sudden it's impossible to get power out of a Scoob.
Compared to Cossies, at best, developement is about 7 years behind. Plus Cossies are generally stronger, enginewise of course
Shaun - not sure I agree about the gearbox on the Cossie - JayBs did a good job of destroying his box, with 420lb ft. But then it had done a fair few miles.......
If a Scoob can match the straightline of that, it will be very impressive.....
As to stroker kits, I think the "revability" issue only occurs if it's not mapped. As to low down torque - there is a MASSIVE difference - even without mapping, felt like it had less leg with a VF22, than as std with a VF28.
I think anything between 330 and 350hp and you have seriously got to expect it to fail in a fairly short time. If you use the performance of course.
I don't understand the UK/OZ/Japan divide. Guess it's because a few people have dabbled who don't know what they're doing, blown a few and all of a sudden it's impossible to get power out of a Scoob.
Compared to Cossies, at best, developement is about 7 years behind. Plus Cossies are generally stronger, enginewise of course
Shaun - not sure I agree about the gearbox on the Cossie - JayBs did a good job of destroying his box, with 420lb ft. But then it had done a fair few miles.......
If a Scoob can match the straightline of that, it will be very impressive.....
As to stroker kits, I think the "revability" issue only occurs if it's not mapped. As to low down torque - there is a MASSIVE difference - even without mapping, felt like it had less leg with a VF22, than as std with a VF28.
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Anthonyj and sam, stroker kit for a 2.2 gives apparently around 2.33, and getting any more, starts to get diificult.
I have to agree with craig :and shaun eek: that there is no way the impreza box can handle 500lbft and bhp. NO way.
Craig is right, we are simply behind in tuning standards, but again that is due to cost, and because few people have bothered. I am sure there is a 450bhp scoob in scotland that has been around for ages.
Higher capacity is the way, and 350 bhp seems easily feasible on a standard block, how long it will last I dont know.
You could go the cossie route, but then you lose the handling advantage coming from the lower weight of the scoob, and the low centre of gravity. Not to mention, the performance that comes from the car weighing "only" 1.25 tonnes.
I can see exactly what you are doing and why, it is exactly the same as me. You can do the peripherals to the standard engine one by one, like I am doing. These will almost give you a safe 350bhp, such as bobs.
Possibly safer since he hasnt done water injection yet, or a front mount.
Hybrid turbos are definitely flavour of the month, if you have an english car then danny fishers turbo makes an awesome difference, if you have an sti (sorry cant remember) then a modified vf 22 such as R19KET's is the way to go. You can the play around with the FMIC idea, as well as revised inlet duct (from air filter to turbo) and then take advantage of headers and exhausts which can yield some awesome gains.
At each stage the ecu should be PROPERLY mapped, otherwise engine rebuild will be a necessity not a choice.
This enables you to have fun all the way, and will take time and hence prolong the enjoyment.
So start with a great engine management, such as the motec but only if you "will" be running more boost at a later date. Ask bob about these developments as there are alternatives.
Whilst this is going on you can approach tuners about doing internal work. Decide what your best option is.
Getting a closed deck 2.2 lock is near on impossible, otherwise I wouldnt be afraid playing with the standard engine in my car, but they are as rare as rocking horse ****, so this is hardly an option.
A good closed deck 2.0 stroked, will still yield potential. If you go 2.5, and want to take all the best bits from each incarnation of the engine development, you will be trying to mate flowed sti heads to it, and here you start running into problems. It will get exepnsive and arguably, very difficult. You will need the right friends to help you here.
With the weaknesses addressed, I dont see why a reliable 400bhp isnt entirely possible, so long as you identify them and strengthen accordingly.
Valve trains mentioned above, can be replcaed by having one offs fabricated, granted this is 1k, but it is possible, dont assume it isnt if one person says so.
Most things are possible if you throw enough moeny at them, and I think with the money you are talking it is certainly viable, good luck. I will be there too.
I have to agree with craig :and shaun eek: that there is no way the impreza box can handle 500lbft and bhp. NO way.
Craig is right, we are simply behind in tuning standards, but again that is due to cost, and because few people have bothered. I am sure there is a 450bhp scoob in scotland that has been around for ages.
Higher capacity is the way, and 350 bhp seems easily feasible on a standard block, how long it will last I dont know.
You could go the cossie route, but then you lose the handling advantage coming from the lower weight of the scoob, and the low centre of gravity. Not to mention, the performance that comes from the car weighing "only" 1.25 tonnes.
I can see exactly what you are doing and why, it is exactly the same as me. You can do the peripherals to the standard engine one by one, like I am doing. These will almost give you a safe 350bhp, such as bobs.
Possibly safer since he hasnt done water injection yet, or a front mount.
Hybrid turbos are definitely flavour of the month, if you have an english car then danny fishers turbo makes an awesome difference, if you have an sti (sorry cant remember) then a modified vf 22 such as R19KET's is the way to go. You can the play around with the FMIC idea, as well as revised inlet duct (from air filter to turbo) and then take advantage of headers and exhausts which can yield some awesome gains.
At each stage the ecu should be PROPERLY mapped, otherwise engine rebuild will be a necessity not a choice.
This enables you to have fun all the way, and will take time and hence prolong the enjoyment.
So start with a great engine management, such as the motec but only if you "will" be running more boost at a later date
. Ask bob about these developments as there are alternatives.Whilst this is going on you can approach tuners about doing internal work. Decide what your best option is.
Getting a closed deck 2.2 lock is near on impossible, otherwise I wouldnt be afraid playing with the standard engine in my car, but they are as rare as rocking horse ****, so this is hardly an option.
A good closed deck 2.0 stroked, will still yield potential. If you go 2.5, and want to take all the best bits from each incarnation of the engine development, you will be trying to mate flowed sti heads to it, and here you start running into problems. It will get exepnsive and arguably, very difficult. You will need the right friends to help you here
.With the weaknesses addressed, I dont see why a reliable 400bhp isnt entirely possible, so long as you identify them and strengthen accordingly.
Valve trains mentioned above, can be replcaed by having one offs fabricated, granted this is 1k, but it is possible, dont assume it isnt if one person says so.
Most things are possible if you throw enough moeny at them, and I think with the money you are talking it is certainly viable, good luck. I will be there too.
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From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
Craig,
"Shaun - not sure I agree about the gearbox on the Cossie - JayBs did a good job of destroying his box, with 420lb ft. But then it had done a fair few miles......."
Have we got crossed wires here mate?? I was stating that the standard standard box could only handle upto 370 lbft, an uprated Quaife could handle 420 lbft and an uprated Quaife with straightcut gears would handle 420 lbft with the inclusive of plenty of abuse and standing starts. Which box are you reffering to??? From what I understand, with that kind of torque a standard box would be lucky to survive 5 full throttle runs, before it exploded.
Adam,
"I have to agree with craig :and shaun eek: that there is no way the impreza box can handle 500lbft and bhp. NO way."
Surely it doesn't hurt that much to agree!!!
Shaun.
"Shaun - not sure I agree about the gearbox on the Cossie - JayBs did a good job of destroying his box, with 420lb ft. But then it had done a fair few miles......."
Have we got crossed wires here mate?? I was stating that the standard standard box could only handle upto 370 lbft, an uprated Quaife could handle 420 lbft and an uprated Quaife with straightcut gears would handle 420 lbft with the inclusive of plenty of abuse and standing starts. Which box are you reffering to??? From what I understand, with that kind of torque a standard box would be lucky to survive 5 full throttle runs, before it exploded.
Adam,
"I have to agree with craig :and shaun eek: that there is no way the impreza box can handle 500lbft and bhp. NO way."
Surely it doesn't hurt that much to agree!!!
Shaun.
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thanks adam for clearing up few things.
APS has got a 520bhp wrx, jun have got a 450wrx MY97 i think.
there 450bhp car up here in scotland, however it has never been dyno'd. it runs 2bar i think so you would expect it to run a lot of power. and rumor has it is cost around 20k for the mods. i have not seen that car on track for over a year now.
i totally agree with mark it is a shame that we have to do it and learn the hard way as the tuning industry in here sucks. that is way this BBS is an invaluable source of information.
APS has got a 520bhp wrx, jun have got a 450wrx MY97 i think.
there 450bhp car up here in scotland, however it has never been dyno'd. it runs 2bar i think so you would expect it to run a lot of power. and rumor has it is cost around 20k for the mods. i have not seen that car on track for over a year now.
i totally agree with mark it is a shame that we have to do it and learn the hard way as the tuning industry in here sucks. that is way this BBS is an invaluable source of information.
Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for all the help and advice - it is this side of owning a Scoobie that is the best!
Is the EJ22 Legacy block that the 22b uses closed or open deck? You say that they are hard to get hold of, but surely there must be a way?!
It sounds like stroking that block to 2.33 would give me a solid base for the push to 400bhp! So, here is my shopping list as it stands - anyone got any comments?!
Near future
-----------
Oil cooler ?
Hybrid VF22 turbo
Water Injection
Upgrade fuel system
ECU? Can the possum handle all of this? I assume so...
FMIC - still not sure about this! I've heard very good things about the standard IC.
Over time
---------
Straight cut gearbox (what is that anyway?)
Uprated diff (what about front-end - is that covered by the gearbox mods?)
Clutch - do I have to get a racing clutch or can you get uprated ones that aren't horrible in traffic?
When engine blows up (or I win the lottery)
-------------------------------------------
New block - 2.0l stroked to 2.2 or 2.2 stroked to 2.35ish (opinions?!)
Better ECU (if not upgraded already)
Obviously, any changes in configuration would mean that I'd need to get the ECU remapped etc. Have I forgotten anything or approached things in the wrong order?!
Keep it coming guys!!
Is the EJ22 Legacy block that the 22b uses closed or open deck? You say that they are hard to get hold of, but surely there must be a way?!
It sounds like stroking that block to 2.33 would give me a solid base for the push to 400bhp! So, here is my shopping list as it stands - anyone got any comments?!
Near future
-----------
Oil cooler ?
Hybrid VF22 turbo
Water Injection
Upgrade fuel system
ECU? Can the possum handle all of this? I assume so...
FMIC - still not sure about this! I've heard very good things about the standard IC.
Over time
---------
Straight cut gearbox (what is that anyway?)
Uprated diff (what about front-end - is that covered by the gearbox mods?)
Clutch - do I have to get a racing clutch or can you get uprated ones that aren't horrible in traffic?
When engine blows up (or I win the lottery)
-------------------------------------------
New block - 2.0l stroked to 2.2 or 2.2 stroked to 2.35ish (opinions?!)
Better ECU (if not upgraded already)
Obviously, any changes in configuration would mean that I'd need to get the ECU remapped etc. Have I forgotten anything or approached things in the wrong order?!
Keep it coming guys!!
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Anthonyj, sounds like you have got it all sussed. You dont need s straight cut gearbox, they are expensive and very noisy on the road (make the whining noise associated with touring cars ).
There are normal (helical cut) gearboxes that can take the power we mention here without the noise level but these provide more resistance in the drivetrain.
No one is sure what the block in the 22B is, whether or not it is a legacy sourced block only subaru know. It is supposed to be closed deck, but I have never seen one opened up to confirm, others have.
As I said, if it was easy to get hold of, nikki grist would have replaced his 22B engine with one but he did not as they really are THAT hard to come by.
This explains why if you have to, closed deck 2.0 is the way to go. It doesnt have to be stroked, 400bhp should be possible without stroking it, if a little more difficult with the lower capacity enginewise, but certainly easier to find.
If you think open/closed is irrelevant, and that tere are more important weaknesses to concentrate on the you can always consider an open deck 2.2. I dont know of any actual blocks failing as yet, but have been told that an open deck may flex more putting more strain on the other internals, and possibly causing pistons to seize as the cylinder deforms???? (guessing here).
).There are normal (helical cut) gearboxes that can take the power we mention here without the noise level but these provide more resistance in the drivetrain.
No one is sure what the block in the 22B is, whether or not it is a legacy sourced block only subaru know. It is supposed to be closed deck, but I have never seen one opened up to confirm, others have.
As I said, if it was easy to get hold of, nikki grist would have replaced his 22B engine with one but he did not as they really are THAT hard to come by.
This explains why if you have to, closed deck 2.0 is the way to go. It doesnt have to be stroked, 400bhp should be possible without stroking it, if a little more difficult with the lower capacity enginewise, but certainly easier to find.
If you think open/closed is irrelevant, and that tere are more important weaknesses to concentrate on the you can always consider an open deck 2.2. I dont know of any actual blocks failing as yet, but have been told that an open deck may flex more putting more strain on the other internals, and possibly causing pistons to seize as the cylinder deforms???? (guessing here).
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Before moving to SAABs Per Eklund used to run a Rally Cross Scoob. He got 630bhp from a 2 litre Scoob engine. Everything was built specifically for the car - engine, transmission, the works.
He was very competitive and so the car was on the money in terms of power. HOWEVER he changed to SAAB turbos simply because his engine man could not keep up with the rebuilds. He says that the SAAB was bullet proof, even at this level.
So, yes you can get the power, reliably - no!
Trout
He was very competitive and so the car was on the money in terms of power. HOWEVER he changed to SAAB turbos simply because his engine man could not keep up with the rebuilds. He says that the SAAB was bullet proof, even at this level.
So, yes you can get the power, reliably - no!
Trout
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From: Where age and treachery reins over youthful exuberance
Great thread, but I'm not up to speed with you guys! Can somebody please explain a couple of things, in layman's terms?
What is different about a closed deck block?
What is different about a hybrid turbo?
Thanks!
Richard.
Can somebody please explain a couple of things, in layman's terms?What is different about a closed deck block?
What is different about a hybrid turbo?
Thanks!
Richard.
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Anthony
couple of things it remember. although your standard intercooler is good a FMIC will gain you some power at least 15-20bhp keeping the car cooler and getting you closer to your goal.
the other thing is forged pistons slap more than standard in the morning, so what clearance will you go for ? this is when an experienced tuner who has done it before helps. again i am sure J knows about this. generally the bigger the clearance the more boost you can run as you are giving the pistons more room to expand and vice versa. big clearance means slap. now all cars piston slap to a certain degree whether you hear it or not. but excessive slap and you can see you expensive engine expire quickly.
Adam M
since you seem to be the first on this BBS to go for the engine upgrade. what are your thoughts on this. ?
couple of things it remember. although your standard intercooler is good a FMIC will gain you some power at least 15-20bhp keeping the car cooler and getting you closer to your goal.
the other thing is forged pistons slap more than standard in the morning, so what clearance will you go for ? this is when an experienced tuner who has done it before helps. again i am sure J knows about this. generally the bigger the clearance the more boost you can run as you are giving the pistons more room to expand and vice versa. big clearance means slap. now all cars piston slap to a certain degree whether you hear it or not. but excessive slap and you can see you expensive engine expire quickly.
Adam M
since you seem to be the first on this BBS to go for the engine upgrade. what are your thoughts on this. ?
Thread Starter
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Hoppy - I'm probably not the person to answer your questions because I don't really understand my answers!
As far as I know, the difference between an open and closed deck is that a closed deck has a lot more metal in it with much smaller spaces for the water to circulate through. An open deck has mostly space. As far as I can gather an open deck is lighter and cheaper to manufacture but not as strong because there is a lot less metal around the bore.
With regard to a hybrid turbo - the theory is to design a turbo that has the best of a small & large turbo in one. That is to say, it spins up very quickly at lower revs but can flow more air at the top end. Bob is the best person at explaining this, but the practical upshot of it is that the car is more responsive at lower revs and develops more power from mid to high revs. Is that roughly right?!
Sam, thanks for the clarification on the FMIC. I had assumed that with a water spray on the standard IC (which seems to get charge temperature down a lot) and water injection as well, there would be very little difference between the standard and FMIC. Presumably, though, it comes down to the FMIC having a greater surface area to start with? Isn't it bad design to have the IC a long way away from the turbo though? One other thing - what on earth is piston slap?! Sounds rude...
Anders, thanks for the info! Just one thing - what do you mean by "link via BRD"? Are you referring to the hybrid turbo or the downpipe or some other gubbins in between the Link and the engine?!
In terms of my long term plan - what do people think would be a stronger and more reliable proposition? A stroked closed deck 2.0 or a normal open deck 2.2? Obviously, there is a lot of appeal in keeping with a 2 litre block because it makes everything else easier.
What do people think of these equal length exhaust manifolds? They make big claims about the increase in power that they deliver - has anyone had any experience with them?
As far as I know, the difference between an open and closed deck is that a closed deck has a lot more metal in it with much smaller spaces for the water to circulate through. An open deck has mostly space. As far as I can gather an open deck is lighter and cheaper to manufacture but not as strong because there is a lot less metal around the bore.
With regard to a hybrid turbo - the theory is to design a turbo that has the best of a small & large turbo in one. That is to say, it spins up very quickly at lower revs but can flow more air at the top end. Bob is the best person at explaining this, but the practical upshot of it is that the car is more responsive at lower revs and develops more power from mid to high revs. Is that roughly right?!
Sam, thanks for the clarification on the FMIC. I had assumed that with a water spray on the standard IC (which seems to get charge temperature down a lot) and water injection as well, there would be very little difference between the standard and FMIC. Presumably, though, it comes down to the FMIC having a greater surface area to start with? Isn't it bad design to have the IC a long way away from the turbo though? One other thing - what on earth is piston slap?! Sounds rude...
Anders, thanks for the info! Just one thing - what do you mean by "link via BRD"? Are you referring to the hybrid turbo or the downpipe or some other gubbins in between the Link and the engine?!
In terms of my long term plan - what do people think would be a stronger and more reliable proposition? A stroked closed deck 2.0 or a normal open deck 2.2? Obviously, there is a lot of appeal in keeping with a 2 litre block because it makes everything else easier.
What do people think of these equal length exhaust manifolds? They make big claims about the increase in power that they deliver - has anyone had any experience with them?