Forged 2.5 with std rods....want more power.......options
04 January 2018, 10:28 AM
#31
Scooby Regular
04 January 2018, 03:57 PM
#33
Mate by the time someone has taken your engine out, stripped it, refreshed it, stuck you new rods in, put it back together, put it back in the car, stuck a new turbo on it, run it in, added any parts required for the new spec and re-mapped it, you're going to be at the thick end of £4k.... is it really worth all that for a bit more power????
My opinion is either sell it and buy something else more suited to your requirements, or just strap a bigger turbo on it and go for 420 ish... it will either go bang or it won't.
Edit to add; What do scooby clinic think it's good for as is???
My opinion is either sell it and buy something else more suited to your requirements, or just strap a bigger turbo on it and go for 420 ish... it will either go bang or it won't.
Edit to add; What do scooby clinic think it's good for as is???
04 January 2018, 07:03 PM
#35
Mate by the time someone has taken your engine out, stripped it, refreshed it, stuck you new rods in, put it back together, put it back in the car, stuck a new turbo on it, run it in, added any parts required for the new spec and re-mapped it, you're going to be at the thick end of £4k.... is it really worth all that for a bit more power????
My opinion is either sell it and buy something else more suited to your requirements, or just strap a bigger turbo on it and go for 420 ish... it will either go bang or it won't.
Edit to add; What do scooby clinic think it's good for as is???
My opinion is either sell it and buy something else more suited to your requirements, or just strap a bigger turbo on it and go for 420 ish... it will either go bang or it won't.
Edit to add; What do scooby clinic think it's good for as is???
04 January 2018, 09:03 PM
#38
Scooby Regular
maybe for a half assed job
05 January 2018, 08:11 AM
#39
If you look at what he's saying, he's actually agreeing with me once you break it down. 
Although I think his labour estimate is a wee bit on the low side... even I wouldn't take an engine out, refresh it and put it back in for a grand and I don't have a premises and wages to pay.
But your rods are what £3/400 probably more for 500+bhp items, full gasket set was around £400 and that's before we start talking about Cosworth and 14mm head stud conversions... then what... are we going to reuse timing belt and tensioners??? or are we going for new / uprated / kevlar remember the target is at least 450 bhp and the rest of the build is good for 500bhp so we really want to be thinking those sort of numbers when specking everything else.
Those of us that have done it know all about project creep, future proofing and over specking to give yourself a safety margin... and tbh that stuff above is just the tip of the iceberg... there's things like injectors, clutch, fuel system... which in it'self is a pretty major expense if you want to do it properly... £4k would be cheap... the reality could quite easily see a build like this sucking up £6k and still wanting more...
syvecs, toucan 
anybody. 
Although I think his labour estimate is a wee bit on the low side... even I wouldn't take an engine out, refresh it and put it back in for a grand and I don't have a premises and wages to pay.
But your rods are what £3/400 probably more for 500+bhp items, full gasket set was around £400 and that's before we start talking about Cosworth and 14mm head stud conversions... then what... are we going to reuse timing belt and tensioners??? or are we going for new / uprated / kevlar remember the target is at least 450 bhp and the rest of the build is good for 500bhp so we really want to be thinking those sort of numbers when specking everything else.
Those of us that have done it know all about project creep, future proofing and over specking to give yourself a safety margin... and tbh that stuff above is just the tip of the iceberg... there's things like injectors, clutch, fuel system... which in it'self is a pretty major expense if you want to do it properly... £4k would be cheap... the reality could quite easily see a build like this sucking up £6k and still wanting more...
syvecs, toucan anybody.
05 January 2018, 03:11 PM
#40
thanks for everybody who has taken the time to share their thoughts.
1st things 1st........sell it and buy something else will NOT be happening,there is no other car that i want that is affordable to me,i looked at bmw m5/jag xfr supercharged/vxr8/evo and whilst i did like them and wouldnt mind having one i knew i would get bored very quickly with them. the subaru just does it for me-i dont drink or take drugs but i do have one expensive addiction and that is the impreza. the only other car i want is another x5 and thats purely because im a big lump who needs a big car to slop around in but that can wait for a while.
im on my 3rd impreza now and i just dont feel done with the brand by a long shot,my last 2 were poor examples and i wasnt in the best financial position at the time to do what i wanted to with them.the one i have now is pretty much mint all over and whilst i tell myself im happy with 350bhp...........im ****ing telling myself the biggest porky ever so whilst i can afford to do what i want i see no reason why i shouldnt do it. yes i know its a waste of money and yes i know its not needed for an everyday car but do i care.......nope-not 1 ****ing bit
so anyway back to the topic.......this can happen 2 ways
1- sell my current engine (approx £2000) and maybe £350 for my vf43
source a broken 2.5 (shouldnt be too hard) maybe £250-£300
closed deck insert/rebore and hone and 14mm headstuds (approx £1000) leaving me with £1k still in credit from sale of my engine. crank/rods/bearings/pistons/gaskets etc and labour should come in at approx £4k (so only really costing me £3k out of my pocket) budget another £1500 for other areas that need addressing ie new fuel pump/new clutch/headers etc/timing kit etc
regarding a syvecs......not going that far to be fair, ive spoke with mark @ thwaites about the new simtek which would be more than enough for what i need if i decide to do the aftermarket ecu.
turbo wise budget another £1k-£1.5k depending which i go for, would love to try an sc46 on a 2.5 but hearing bad things regarding cracked exhaust housings putting me off, gt3071r could be had for around £1100 or the t36 from enginetuner good for 450bhp and around the £1k mark.
the other way would be a rebuild of my current engine, i wouldnt generate the £2k from a sale but i also wouldnt have to worry about trying to sell it and then source a new block. as for re-using things i think that would be a mistake, whilst its apart i may aswell put new everything in and give it its best chance.
OR......i could go 2.1 stroker, no need for closed deck inserts or 14mm conversion just grab a knackered 2.0 lump and rebuild it using a stroker kit but would lose a little low end grunt but would it really be noticeable???
perhaps i should take drugs and drink........would be an easier choice
1st things 1st........sell it and buy something else will NOT be happening,there is no other car that i want that is affordable to me,i looked at bmw m5/jag xfr supercharged/vxr8/evo and whilst i did like them and wouldnt mind having one i knew i would get bored very quickly with them. the subaru just does it for me-i dont drink or take drugs but i do have one expensive addiction and that is the impreza. the only other car i want is another x5 and thats purely because im a big lump who needs a big car to slop around in but that can wait for a while.
im on my 3rd impreza now and i just dont feel done with the brand by a long shot,my last 2 were poor examples and i wasnt in the best financial position at the time to do what i wanted to with them.the one i have now is pretty much mint all over and whilst i tell myself im happy with 350bhp...........im ****ing telling myself the biggest porky ever so whilst i can afford to do what i want i see no reason why i shouldnt do it. yes i know its a waste of money and yes i know its not needed for an everyday car but do i care.......nope-not 1 ****ing bit
so anyway back to the topic.......this can happen 2 ways
1- sell my current engine (approx £2000) and maybe £350 for my vf43
source a broken 2.5 (shouldnt be too hard) maybe £250-£300
closed deck insert/rebore and hone and 14mm headstuds (approx £1000) leaving me with £1k still in credit from sale of my engine. crank/rods/bearings/pistons/gaskets etc and labour should come in at approx £4k (so only really costing me £3k out of my pocket) budget another £1500 for other areas that need addressing ie new fuel pump/new clutch/headers etc/timing kit etc
regarding a syvecs......not going that far to be fair, ive spoke with mark @ thwaites about the new simtek which would be more than enough for what i need if i decide to do the aftermarket ecu.
turbo wise budget another £1k-£1.5k depending which i go for, would love to try an sc46 on a 2.5 but hearing bad things regarding cracked exhaust housings putting me off, gt3071r could be had for around £1100 or the t36 from enginetuner good for 450bhp and around the £1k mark.
the other way would be a rebuild of my current engine, i wouldnt generate the £2k from a sale but i also wouldnt have to worry about trying to sell it and then source a new block. as for re-using things i think that would be a mistake, whilst its apart i may aswell put new everything in and give it its best chance.
OR......i could go 2.1 stroker, no need for closed deck inserts or 14mm conversion just grab a knackered 2.0 lump and rebuild it using a stroker kit but would lose a little low end grunt but would it really be noticeable???
perhaps i should take drugs and drink........would be an easier choice
05 January 2018, 03:34 PM
#41
I thought the problems re SC46 had been sorted with the later batches.
You should get a detailed costing on putting rods into your present motor, one from clinic and one other. Re using stuff has got to be down to the builder, for instance Paul F re used the cosworth headstuds when he rebuilt my wrecked engine.
That would be the only option for me or accepting things as is but just pushing the power up to nearer 400hp.
Trev
You should get a detailed costing on putting rods into your present motor, one from clinic and one other. Re using stuff has got to be down to the builder, for instance Paul F re used the cosworth headstuds when he rebuilt my wrecked engine.
That would be the only option for me or accepting things as is but just pushing the power up to nearer 400hp.
Trev
05 January 2018, 03:35 PM
#42
Nice post shrek,that’s the same reason my wife don’t mind me playing around with my cars,as she is always telling me...You don’t do drink or drugs or spend money on a side chick Lol.Just take your time,and think properly the way that you want to go about things with your car and stick to it.Theirs a word that people always forget to add when it comes to engine rebuilds “Miscellaneous parts”they seem to magic out of nowhere
.If you say £4000 add another grand for the hidden parts.SJ.
,that’s the same reason my wife don’t mind me playing around with my cars,as she is always telling me...You don’t do drink or drugs or spend money on a side chick Lol.Just take your time,and think properly the way that you want to go about things with your car and stick to it.Theirs a word that people always forget to add when it comes to engine rebuilds “Miscellaneous parts”they seem to magic out of nowhere.If you say £4000 add another grand for the hidden parts.SJ.
05 January 2018, 03:45 PM
#43
Nice post shrek,that’s the same reason my wife don’t mind me playing around with my cars,as she is always telling me...You don’t do drink or drugs or spend money on a side chick Lol.Just take your time,and think properly the way that you want to go about things with your car and stick to it.Theirs a word that people always forget to add when it comes to engine rebuilds “Miscellaneous parts”they seem to magic out of nowhere.If you say £4000 add another grand for the hidden parts.SJ.
,that’s the same reason my wife don’t mind me playing around with my cars,as she is always telling me...You don’t do drink or drugs or spend money on a side chick Lol.Just take your time,and think properly the way that you want to go about things with your car and stick to it.Theirs a word that people always forget to add when it comes to engine rebuilds “Miscellaneous parts”they seem to magic out of nowhere.If you say £4000 add another grand for the hidden parts.SJ.
oil
filters
spark plugs
coolant
oil pump
water pump
etc etc
i will contact paul finch to see about just changing the rods along with other builders to see what the general advice is.
05 January 2018, 04:11 PM
#44
Scooby Regular
Pick a builder, get them to do it to what they say needs doing and listen to their advice, dont make the same mistakes again you did with your old cars dude.
05 January 2018, 10:50 PM
#49
A couple of points (feel free to ignore - these are just my thoughts)
1. Regarding selling the current engine:
Difficult to do unless you do work on the cars yourself, because you'll need to get your tuner/garage to take the engine out, and have them put a new one in (from the spare block + heads you're giving them). They're unlikely to want you the car there without an engine until you manage to sell it, so in effect you'll have two engines for some time (old + new).
I think it sounds risky myself, because you might well end up stuck with a 2.5 engine that nobody will pay top dollar for (because of the rods), and end up either keeping it for a long time, or selling at a hefty discount.
I've been stuck with a hard to shift pile of parts more than once (my garage still has some, grr), and it's really annoying when my man maths doesn't work out, and even more so when I see the evidence every time I'm in the garage
2. Regarding 2.1: As it's not a JDM, further down the line it might be more difficult to sell. Also, your heads wont work with the 2.0 blocks because of bore size issues, so you'll have to source new age STI heads (not sure if the wiring etc is compatible either - definitely aftermarket ECU time). Also (I might be mistaken here), I think the 2.5 STI heads are more advanced than the pre 2006 2.0 heads? Double AVCS or something?
3. For me, it'd have to be a rebuild of the parts you already have. No point spending good money on a new crank (400-450 quid to replace a part that is in effect new), same with pistons (your builder will be able to advise on this, of course, but at least Mr Finch seemed happy to rebuild my engine with my reasonable condition pistons).
Your current block is recent as well, so it's probably still got round bores, so you might save money on the rebore cost (just a hone and rings, assuming the piston to wall clearance still ends up reasonable).
Speak to some builders - you might be surprised by the quotes (in a good way).
1. Regarding selling the current engine:
Difficult to do unless you do work on the cars yourself, because you'll need to get your tuner/garage to take the engine out, and have them put a new one in (from the spare block + heads you're giving them). They're unlikely to want you the car there without an engine until you manage to sell it, so in effect you'll have two engines for some time (old + new).
I think it sounds risky myself, because you might well end up stuck with a 2.5 engine that nobody will pay top dollar for (because of the rods), and end up either keeping it for a long time, or selling at a hefty discount.
I've been stuck with a hard to shift pile of parts more than once (my garage still has some, grr), and it's really annoying when my man maths doesn't work out, and even more so when I see the evidence every time I'm in the garage
2. Regarding 2.1: As it's not a JDM, further down the line it might be more difficult to sell. Also, your heads wont work with the 2.0 blocks because of bore size issues, so you'll have to source new age STI heads (not sure if the wiring etc is compatible either - definitely aftermarket ECU time). Also (I might be mistaken here), I think the 2.5 STI heads are more advanced than the pre 2006 2.0 heads? Double AVCS or something?
3. For me, it'd have to be a rebuild of the parts you already have. No point spending good money on a new crank (400-450 quid to replace a part that is in effect new), same with pistons (your builder will be able to advise on this, of course, but at least Mr Finch seemed happy to rebuild my engine with my reasonable condition pistons).
Your current block is recent as well, so it's probably still got round bores, so you might save money on the rebore cost (just a hone and rings, assuming the piston to wall clearance still ends up reasonable).
Speak to some builders - you might be surprised by the quotes (in a good way).
06 January 2018, 12:12 PM
#50
so i have spoken briefly with a few tuners/builders and a 2,1 stroker will not be possible due to the cam triggers from my car being different to the 2.0 engine that would be needed for a 2.1 stroker.
to have my rods replaced for some proper rods that will take the bhp would be around £2500-£3000 and that includes head gaskets/engine removal + refit, timing kit etc etc but thats based on no unseen problems arising.
i also thought that once a 2.5 has been decked that its pretty much bomb-proof.......turns out i im wrong as ive been told that the 2.5 block is in general not very good, alot of variations between the blocks and closed decking wont stop split liners if my block is a bad one.
seems ive opened a can of worms upon my head
to have my rods replaced for some proper rods that will take the bhp would be around £2500-£3000 and that includes head gaskets/engine removal + refit, timing kit etc etc but thats based on no unseen problems arising.
i also thought that once a 2.5 has been decked that its pretty much bomb-proof.......turns out i im wrong as ive been told that the 2.5 block is in general not very good, alot of variations between the blocks and closed decking wont stop split liners if my block is a bad one.
seems ive opened a can of worms upon my head
06 January 2018, 07:31 PM
#52
had a think about it today and im gonna push my current engine further, i will never make good money by selling it so i may aswell get some use out of it. im not doing the rods but i will be taking it to around 400+bhp so lets see what happens, if it ****s itself then i will HAVE to make a decision wont i
so now the question is.........which turbo for around 400bhp?
07 January 2018, 10:33 AM
#53
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Nothing / ^ your just throwing money / you can push your 43 to 380 some beyond .
Your not getting the engine done now ,
Put a killer B pick up & windage tray in for a cpl hundred quid as you opened a thread . & drive it .
Tbh shreksta your 350 now & car is running sweet . Just stay with it unless your gonna pull the engine & spend £££
Just my opinion
Your not getting the engine done now ,
Put a killer B pick up & windage tray in for a cpl hundred quid as you opened a thread . & drive it .
Tbh shreksta your 350 now & car is running sweet . Just stay with it unless your gonna pull the engine & spend £££
Just my opinion
07 January 2018, 04:13 PM
#55
I havnt read the whole thread so sorry if it dosent apply.
Just to note the older mahle 2618 pistons had problems that caused them to fold over like they were made out of chocolate, the newer piston are actually tried n tested upto 1000hp by steve at roland aslop
Just to note the older mahle 2618 pistons had problems that caused them to fold over like they were made out of chocolate, the newer piston are actually tried n tested upto 1000hp by steve at roland aslop
07 January 2018, 04:39 PM
#56
Also the sc46 housing problem was rectified years age with a new design exhaust housing so I wouldn’t worry about that if buying new.
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car
07 January 2018, 04:40 PM
#57
Scooby Regular
Also the sc46 housing problem was rectified years age with a new design exhaust housing so I wouldn’t worry about that if buying new.
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car
07 January 2018, 06:28 PM
#60
Also the sc46 housing problem was rectified years age with a new design exhaust housing so I wouldn’t worry about that if buying new.
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car
Another thing I don’t get is why fit pukka 2618 pistons that are 600+ capable instead of the cheaper 4032s which are 500 rated and fit standard rods? You need to be certain that 2618s were actually fitted when 4032 would of been fine.
Tbh, my opinion would be is to just fit a bigger turbo and just run it as it is and have some money put away if it does ever go and do it properly then if it does happen, every car is different.
End of the day its only a car