BMWhere?

So then, explain to me why you don't get knife battles between the eastern European factions living in Germany?

The problem you're describing is crime and how the UK deals with it. Where the criminals come from is irrelevant, as long as the police are underfunded and overstretched, there will be crime, run by foreigners or by Brits it makes no difference.

Also don't forget, any EU citizen convicted of a crime can be refused residence. It's the UK's choice to underfund the police and the UK's choice not to keep a record of residency and refuse residence to convicted criminals. Leaving the EU will fix nothing!

Felix.

You probably will have knife battles in Germany, but like in the UK, no one wants to report anything that are involved.

EU citizens are still allowed free movement regardless of their past - look at the murder of Alice Gross by a Latvian who had a murder conviction from his home country, then just walked into the UK

And funding is a problem, I agree. We cant afford new batteries for radios, can't afford to kit out all officers with body cams, can't afford to service or replace panda cars etc. Would't it be good to have a cash injection from somewhere........

trails

iTrader: (41)

Hasn't it always been this way; socio-economicly challenged areas have always been crime hot spots and when there is a dip in funding there is a spike in crime?

Felix.

Possibly, but isn't it a good idea to target where the crime is coming from:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/34...igrant-arrests

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The Express? You might as well have just quoted straight from TBP's home-page.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Your sources aren't supportive evidence of an open mind Felix.

I think you would need to provide empirical evidence to support your stance, rather than anecdotal stuff posted from a right leaning paper...

Felix.

And how about my own personal experience - will that do

trails

iTrader: (41)

Not if you wish to undertake widespread social change...personal experience is classed as anecdotal; you would need to observe a meaningful sample size of repeated behaviour in order for it have have any empirical value.

Social engineering is not a simple undertaking, look at how badly that 'orrible **** Blair failed...this issue is the part of the shadow his decisions exacibated.

Felix.

Define a 'meaningful sample size'

So would you say everything is fine as it is? If we have another vote and remain in the EU the problems would disappear, how can we safeguard our borders when the EU say we have to have free movement?

And can you find another big source of money which can be re-invested back into the country?

trails

iTrader: (41)

i guess context of the population size would be important and a host of other measures to enable conclusive correlation to crime and nationality?

I believe the current unrest has more to do with the division created by the referendum, a lack of investment in public services and rage widening poverty gap. Leaving the EU is no panacea...better to be part of it and leverage change.

Hasn’t it already been established that GB have a net gain as members of the EU and leaving will not suddenly match or exceed that gain...nobody knows what will really happen if we leave, but both sides agree there would be an initial slump period. How long a slump would you deem acceptable to be in recession and what net gain would you say is the minimum level to judge leaving the EU as a success?

If we do leave (and you close the boarders ), how are you going to deal with all the foreign nationals already here causing all this mayhem?

Mr Fuji

The question of funding for public services is problematic whether we are in or out. We have seen a drastic cut in recent years, but it's not as if our contributions to the EU have increased to their detriment, so leaving is unlikely to free up sufficient funds. The shock to the economy will also reduce the amount of money the govt has to spend, so leaving is clearly not an answer to the crime you see.

The govt can either increase taxation or try to stimulate the economy to generate more tax revenues. Leaving the EU is unlikely to do either of those things!

Felix.

And yet we will save a fortune by not sending it to the EU

Felix.

The problem we have is people come and go who are involved. So, for the farm investigations I currently have - the people involved will no longer be in the UK and are hence untouchable. Or they will come and go on sporadic occasions. Surely closing this revolving door is one step.

If we make it more difficult, future generations will not be able to use the UK so easily as a base

Mr Fuji

But it isn't, that's the issue. It is to you and me, not in the great scheme of things. And you fail to address the reduction in the economy which immediately wipes out (and more) that 'saving'

trails

iTrader: (41)

Its not a revolving door though is it; they still have to go through passport control...so why aren't you working with customs so you can hold them when they try and enter or leave?

trails

iTrader: (41)

This is like grounding day.

Felix.

And this is not guaranteed to happen. They said if don't join single monetary system it would be catastrophic, but it wasn't. They said on the day the country decided to leave the EU it would be disastrous to the economy, but it wasn't. Here's a chance to save money by not giving it to the EU.

Felix.

Because they leave and send another to replace them - brother, uncle, son etc etc
Once they are back in the home country they are virtually untouchable

trails

iTrader: (41)

So how would leaving the EU help in that scenario?

trails

iTrader: (41)

Presumably you are just being obtuse or on the wind up...haven't we already put this to bed?

Felix.

You could have an Esta system like the USA where people are checked before being allowed to enter and can only stay for a designated period of time.

Felix.

I'm not reading through 5000 posts to check. Its going to be all down to opinions and they only way we will find out is when we are out.
From my position and in my opinion its an opportunity worth taking - we will agree to differ.

trails

iTrader: (41)

And why can't you initiate a process like that where your intelligence tells you there is a risk associated to an individual...surely it's straight forward if they are all related as you claim?

trails

iTrader: (41)

It's in the last dozen or so posts too...I guess that's the fundamental difference between where we stand; I believe risk should be mitigated where ever possible...so at the very least you go in with your eyes wide open.

Felix.

Because they all have different names so you don't who will be coming back over, who they are related to (if there is any relation at all) and if and when they will attempt to come back. And the people coming back have done nothing wrong,so you can't flag them up for anything.

trails

iTrader: (41)

Sorry I assumed you had more actual data based on your posts...

Question still stands then...how will leaving the EU mitigate this challenge...what changes?

Dr Hu

Errr.. by not having Free Movement from the EU..... one of the tenants of the Tory Policy on leaving Europe

Felix - I truly feel for you - the Police are having to pick up the pieces of a 'European Experiment' in free movement - with a drastically reduced budget.
Anybody who things everything is all fine and dandy in the UK is living in a dream world.... or not anywhere near a Urban environment.
Pretty much every single person wants to stop (particularly) eastern europeans coming in due to the troubles caused, as highlighted by Felix - but there are a few die hard remainers on here living in a dream world with a blindfold on... or are rich enough for it not to affect them.
Look at the success of the Brexit Party - ever wonder why? - the biggest party to rise in what 2 months! I know a few on here will jump in - racist this, racist that.... but its what most of the normal people want, and their experiences of what they see on the street day in and day out.... and they are sick of it - the UK has really gone down the sh1tter in the last 20yrs - oh look! pretty much once the Maastricht Treaty policies kicked in with Free Movement from 2004 and 2014 for Romania & Bulgaria.

The only way any of this was EU experiment ever going to work was with overnight full tax harmonisation, benefit harmonisation and currency harmonisation, to minimise huge benefit/currency/people migration - which pretty much mean all the EU nations independent sovereignty disappears pronto and we all become one great EU nation - as you can imagine that will (probably) never happen in our lifetimes so we are left with this unholy mess,,,,
And they wonder why populist parties are on the rise - they are trying to shoehorn together nations that don't really want to be lumped together, and have massive disparities in wages/living standards etc
Its a right ****-show tbh...

trails

iTrader: (41)

when was the last time you travelled outside the UK...unless it's significantly changed in the last couple of months EVERY fooking person goes through biometric passport control, including UK passport holders. Open boarders eh?

Brexit party lolz...them there big boys that stood up and turned their backs to the EU anthem...the same party with no real policies, made up of mad old bastid has-been MPs. Let's see that translate to UK electoral seats

BMWhere?

You seem to have decided that the EU is to blame for all the crime problems and are looking only at the evidence to support your conclusion and ignoring everything that goes against it. What happened to considering all the evidence first then making a conclusion. I thought the days of police fit-ups were behind us, but seemingly not!

The UK government has planned a £4 billion budget for Brexit planning. The divorce bill is another £40 billion+. The UKs net contribution to the EU is £8.9 billion per year, so that makes a direct cost to the UK tax payer of 5 years EU contributions just to leave!

Then there is the notion that the economy has not collapsed. It's true that the UK economy is doing reasonably well, be we should have been booming for the last 3 years. The Brexit vote has already cost the UK economy approximately 2.5% GDP growth, which works out at about £600 million per week. Of course that loss to the economy also equates to a loss in tax contributions. Additionally, the increase in inflation has lead to a real-terms wage fall which also means a loss to the real-terms tax contributions. All this, and we haven't left yet! The reality is, EU membership brings in more benefits to the economy and with it the associated tax collections, that the membership costs.

I'm not going to argue that the UK (or at least some parts of the UK) doesn't have a crime problem with foreign gangs, of which some are EU members. I also won't argue that the problem is getting worse. My argument is that this is not because of EU membership or freedom of movement. As has been pointed out above, the UK does not have an open border - everyone entering the UK has to go through passport control and the UK has the right to deny entry and residency to any EU citizen with a criminal conviction. These Eastern Europeans are not only travelling to the UK, but across all EU countries, yet not all EU countries are seeing the same level of criminal activity as we are seeing in the UK. It is quite clear that the problems in the UK are not directly related to EU freedom of movement, otherwise the same problems would be seen to the same level in all EU members.

The problems in the UK are of its own doing. The lack of a UK address registration and ID card laws means that criminals (UK or foreign) can freely move within the UK without trace. Lapse border controls (particularly at sea ports) and no exit checks are also an issue. But decades of under-funding of the police force, the lack of bobbies on the beat and community policing are probably the major factors that allow criminal gangs to go about their activities with little threat of being caught. The UK is an easy target for criminals, but its the UKs choice to be that way and we shouldn't be surprised by the problems we are seeing if we're not willing to pay to fix them!

The UK has one of the lowest business tax rates in the EU, it also has pretty low income tax rates compared to most developed countries, particularly among high earners! The costs of the EU membership doesn't even scratch the surface on the additional funding we need for the police, never mind the health service, education, housing etc. The economic hit to the UK from leaving the EU is only going to confound those problems, reduce tax revenues and result in more cuts to public services. Even staunch Brexiteers generally accept there will be a medium term hit to the UK economy from leaving, so there is never going to be the sort of cash injection to the UK budget to fix these problems. The only solution is to increase taxes and properly fund our public services like other EU countries do, rather than following the low tax and low public services model of the USA which sees even more criminality and poverty than the UK!

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

I live in an inner city area with high immigration, I've never been rich or remotely well off (now trying to survive on a state pension), and I, along with a big majority in my city (62%) wish to remain in the EU. I also have my eyes and ears wide open, and a lifetime experience to draw from. Categorising people who wish to remain in the EU as privileged, elite, and well off is very far from the truth.
Sifting through the available statistics, it's clear that criminality amongst EU Eastern Europeans in the UK is at the same rate as the indigenous population. The idea that immigration from the EU is fuelling a crime wave, and free movement is to blame, is purely political, and has no basis in reality. But, we've always had to have bogeymen, to keep people in fear and suspicion of each other, whilst those in power get away with whatever they want.