Paben

iTrader: (5)

Of course I am because it's unworkable and has never been achieved anywhere, ever, and never will be. Even the Chinese have finally capitulated, dumping their version of communism in all but name.

Martin2005

Redistribution of wealth is a fact of life in all modern democracies - it's an essential part of a functioning civilised society.

You appear to be saying that you're opposed to taxation

JTaylor

I don't think you understand modern socialism.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

How do you draw that conclusion? And if your first sentence is correct what is this discussion about?

Martin2005

Because you claimed to be against redistribution obviously

Paben

iTrader: (5)

If you track back far enough the original point was equality, which presumably means equality of wealth. How would that be achieved?

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Why don't you enlighten me?

Martin2005

It can't

JTaylor

You make too many presumptions in these exchanges.

JTaylor

Out at the minute, Paben. I'll post when I get back.

madscoob

iTrader: (3)

its working right now , look up minnesota in the states and how the governor has turned the place around by adding 2.5% tax to people on $150k a year or more, and adding to corp tax and increasing the min wage

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Ha, don't blame me if your posts are so open to interpretation. Answering my questions with more questions or bland remarks leads nowwhere. That's the sort of trick politicians resort to!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Fair enough, but when was the last time a supporter of top-rate tax hikes in this country suggested they be increased by only 2.5%? It's always 5% or 10%, or far more than that even when anyone talks about it over here.

it's a similar story also with the minimum wage increase. In MN, they have separate (lower) rates for businesses below a given annual revenue ($500K), something I don't think I've ever seen suggested here (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Finally of course, you have to take into account that they're starting from a much lower base in the US than we are here, with overall tax rates a good 10% lower than ours. If their rates were already at the levels they are in this country, that same 2.5% increase on their top-rate might have had a very different effect.

JTaylor

Was about to write a long post, but I'm sure you and others will be relieved that I've decided to put up a Wiki' article instead. Happy to discuss further:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialist

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Bit of a cop out there, I understand the principles well enough but was expecting your slant on this. Are you advocating re-nationalisation for instance? Or, more extreme, perhaps you prefer the notion of the violent overthrow of the capitalist lickspittles of the imperialist ruling class?

JTaylor

Ok, I'm sorry, I'll do my best for you.

Of what and how?

You're struggling with the nature of democracy here, I think.

jonc

I once read that socialism died decades ago, only champagne socialists exists now.

JTaylor

We have a democratic socialist as the Leader of the Opposition and we had one as the Mayor of London. The former certainly appears authentic and I see no evidence that he'll be corrupted by power.

jonc

Only time will tell.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

It's also in your wiki article. But you're answering questions with questions again and doubting my intelligence. I think I'll just go quietly.

JTaylor

My question was perfectly reasonable, I was looking for clarity. Renationalisation of what and how would it work? Additionally, nobody's advocating a violent revolution!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It was you who started with the grandiose statements about sharing of gifts and privileges. Is it so unreasonable to expect that you go into a little more detail, rather than just fire back a string of questions at anyone curious enough to ask what you mean by that?

c_maguire

Or Jesus.

JTaylor

If Paben is talking about the kind of nationalisation we saw in to 60s and 70s, then I'm out. If he's talking about well-run, efficient, good-value-for-money energy and utilities outfits then I'd be prepared to listen to what Corbyn had to say. It would be the unions that would need managing as I experienced first-hand when I worked for the Royal Mail.

I'm not convinced socialist economics can work, by the way, even though my heart tells me it's a preferable model than the one which allows the top 20% of Americans to own 85% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population to own 15%. What kind of a system is that? And if it's about winners and losers, why did the banks get bailed out when they were about to lose? They were capitalists right up until the point that the free market was due to regulate itself and then all of a sudden a Keynesian policy is employed. Disgusting!

Perhaps as I get older I'm moving towards the left of centre. It feels ok. I'm glad Corbyn is in the game, the electorate has a real choice now: not just between capitalism and capitalism, but between capitalism and democratic socialism. I never thought I'd see the day.

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

That'll teach him not to sing the song.

hodgy0_2

the East Coast rail line is a case in point

re-nationalised 5 years ago because it was a basket case in private hands

in the past five years it has been a public owned success story (record punctuality, record customer satisfaction)

"In its five years as East Coast, the state-run firm returned a little more than Ł1bn in premiums, as well as several million in profits, to the Treasury. Detailed financial analysis from the Office of Rail Regulation shows it was one of two firms to make a net contribution to government coffers over the last two years, paying in more than it received in subsidy or indirect grants, along with Southwest Trains (run by Stagecoach).

The success of East Coast led to calls from unions and Labour to keep the line in state hands, especially after the 2012 West Coast franchising fiasco meant many scheduled bidding competitions were postponed. However, the coalition ensured its return to the private sector ahead of the election. "

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-private-hands

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...-taxpayer.html

re-privatised simply due to pathetic free market dogma

and the irony of the privately run utilities is some are owned by state run companies - it's just they happen to be German or French

people really have been totally conned by this neo liberal "Chicago" school of economics for the last 30 years

have a look at what is happening in Kansas - Senator Brownback has subjected the people of Kansas to a “real live” experiment in this daft economic theory

5 years ago he slashed taxes for the rich and business, sat back and waited for the cash to come rolling in

well it has been an unmitigated disaster (obviously not for the wealthy)

the state finances are suffering a massive deficit (worse than any other state), unemployment UP, employment Down, economic growth stagnated

so the plan now – to try and plug the black hole in the states finances (the deficit is huge and growing) is to cut – yep, healthcare (what there is of it), education, parks, roads etc – the basic infrastructure

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-s...riment-working

http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-...le1147877.html

http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-...le1147877.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/13/us...nsas.html?_r=0

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...k-Blames-Obama

or simply google “kansas brownback tax”

hodgy0_2

you couldn't make this **** up

who could be behind the Kansas debacle

non other than Art Laffer

well here is this financial genius - spouting total bollox, just weeks before the biggest financial crash the world has EVER seen, remember this clip is from 2006

simply marvel at his idiocy

a great watch actually (remember when you watch this he was the architect of the US economy in the 80's - that has decimated the middles class let alone the poor)

when he comes up against simple common sense he his left intellectually and economically wanting

JTaylor

I marvelled at his idiocy.

RS_Matt

Thankfully Corbyn isn't influenced by his friends or family as the IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamists, grooming gang protectors, anti-Semites, age of consent droppers, Argentinians, holocaust deniers and his global warming denying brother would have a powerful "friend" as a powerful contact.

...but he's true to his convictions so I trust him 100%

hodgy0_2

An economic theory famously scribbled on a napkin - it should have been consigned to the bin

In my more vindictive moments I hope Trump gets elected