An0n0m0us

This ^^^

I'm all for fox control but simply not with a pack of dogs. And Matteeboy I am not a townie, I live in the countryside and participate in other forms of hunting which are not cruel or barbaric in any shape or form and involves what is hunted being eaten so isn't done for fun.

Matteeboy

So shooting an animal isn't cruel?
I've shot a few and it's definitely not pleasant unless you are from a Hollywood film and get a clean kill every time.
A rabbit/deer/whatever screeching in agony with a bullet through its spine isn't nice.

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

Family. My Grandad bought a couple of farms and did pigs and chickens but slowly got rid of the pigs and moved mainly onto battery chicken farming. My Father eventually took over and in 2001 converted the farm from battery to free range. I've been working on the farm for 5 years now and to date we have 25,000 chickens and supply Waitrose. So, if you buy your free range eggs from Waitrose, they could be ours.

I don't quite understand the point? I'm sure that the people that want it to remain banned is because they see it as cruel on the fox. I know it isn't the best way to control the population, but every little helps and for that reason I am against the ban. It's cruel, but so are foxes slaughtering other animals and I'm not talking about a couple of chickens for their dinner.

neil-h

Agreed, I've recently got into clay pigeon shooting and found myself browsing various field/country sports type websites. Yes the ideal way would be to have people out with guns hunting the foxes but it's still a minority group doing it and foxes are quite prolific, so if you really want to control the numbers you need as many avenues open as possible.

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

Also with shooting, personally (and other farmers) I do not want to be spending a couple of hours late in the evening, in the cold and rain, standing silently still waiting for a fox. I've done this mainy times without firing once and it's extremely boring and a waste of time. Now I have a fox trap which I keep baited with a dead chicken. I check it every morning and if there's a fox, a quick trip back to the house to fetch the rifle is all that's needed. I haven't caught one in a couple of months now though which tells me that there are currently no foxes present around my area. It must have something to do with the 8 I shot just over 2 months ago It's not enjoyable but it NEEDS to be done.

But again, 8 foxes within the space of 3 weeks is extremely rare. A farmer told me that rumour has it that the RSPCA were catching city foxes and releasing them in the countryside. This must be correct because it's the only explainiation for the high number of foxes within a short space of time. Why don't they use lethal injection on the foxes when they are caught, that's humane right? Oh yeah, they'd rather let the foxes slaughter chickens and lambs. The public simply do no realise. Honestly, lethal injection once caught? No one can argue with the fact that that is not humane and barbaric?

hodgy0_2

but some hunts have been known to breed (or encourage the propagation) of Foxes

so that would negate the control argument really

I think the whole "control" thing is really a Trojan horse argument

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

I've never heard of hunts doing this and yes, they shouldn't be doing it. I agree on that point but this could be an extreme minority?

hodgy0_2

well it definitely seems to go on

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/f...g.ruralaffairs

just google

"hunts breed foxes"

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Having done a fair old bit of hunting over a 20yr period, a large proportion of which was pest control, I can say that foxes are by far the most difficult animal to hunt, even when you know where they are getting a shot that you can take isn't easy, even on a big farm, due to where the round may end up.

You can pretty much forget trying to go hunting them with a shotgun because you'll never get close enough, unless by accident one wonders by, and it'll need to be pretty close and want both barrels and then most would probably end up re-loading and running around after it trying to get the kill shot, is the stark reality.

I'm a pretty decent shot and I would struggle, so god knows what it would be like having all an sundry wondering around with shotguns (not fit for purpose) or worse still rifles hunting for foxes.
Bottom line is you need dogs and the means to keep up with them across all manner of terrain, even then it's still not easy to catch one.

I have come home empty handed on many, many occasions to the point that I stopped going with the lad I used to go with because it was pretty pointless kitting up and going out, turned into a late night picnic most of the time.

So as un-palatable as it may be for some we actually need fox hunting with hounds if only as part of the solution.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

In hard numbers, how many foxes (and out of what size population) were eliminated by hunting prior to the ban, and how many since its introduction? By how much has the fox population increased since the ban was introduced?

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

True story: I once had a night in with a few mates and Pizza (Domino's). As usual we completely over-ordered and there was pretty much 3/4s of the meat feast Pizza left.

I made the mistake of putting the rubbish bag out in the back garden rather than straight in the wheelie bin (combination of alcohol, fatigue and laziness). Sure enough the next morning the bin bag had been ripped open. The pizza box was open but the contents were completely untouched.

Moral of the story: Foxes are smarter than some humans!


In terms of whether fox hunting ban should be revoked, I take the KISS approach to the argument advocated by Ricky Gervais:

"If you enjoy seeing an animal terrified or in pain, you are a c**t"

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

No idea, google is your friend.

neil-h

I do love it when people over simplify an argument just to prove their point.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Lamping from a specially equipped truck, using small calibre high velocity rifles, is about as effective a means for controlling foxes as you can get. Unfortunately, or luckily depending on your point of view, this method is not readily available to the the average shooting man or woman. Also it has to be done in the dead of night so may not appeal to many people.

As has been metioned earlier shotguns are useless, only a dopey fox would ever come within range. Lampers report occasionally encountering foxes that are apparently dopey, just sitting in the middle of fields looking lost. The considered opinion is that these are town foxes repatriated to the countryside by the RSPCA.

Foxes have no natural predators and unless controlled will over populate and then stray from their usual wild diet. Chickens are a prime target, also baby lambs and anything else they can get hold of.

Hunting may not be as efficient as the rifle but it helps control foxes and keeps them out of the farmyards.

dpb

Trained marksmen out the bedroom window of your semi would seem best solution .

But housewife wouldn't like it


New Scooby 04 , you sure it wasn't a seagull ?

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

We foxes think that chicken and lamb populations are out of control and are just culling them back to a more controlled population.
You humans are so arrogant as to believe you have the right to say what lives and what dies. What about the over population of people?
You humans are the planets biggest parasites. You destroy the natural habitat of many animals by building towns, cities factories etc. You pollute the air and water. You kill other animals for no other reason but for your sadistic pleasure. I'm so glad I'm a fox and not a human.

Matteeboy

Incredibly naive.

dpb

Lol , you've no trouble with us re introducing Mr wolf then ?

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I think they already have where he's from.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Sorry, but how can you claim hunting makes a blind bit of difference to the size of the fox population, if you don't have the first idea about the figures involved? For all you know, it might even cause increases in their numbers.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I didn't get the Perp on video your honor!

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Please show me where I made that claim.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

In your earlier post, you stated "So as un-palatable as it may be for some we actually need fox hunting with hounds if only as part of the solution."

If that isn't a pretty clear indication of the fact that you believe hunting helps to keep fox numbers down, I'd like to know what is.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Here are some facts (fully referenced and including literature from reputable scientific journals) presented by an organisation that makes it's position very transparent.

http://www.league.org.uk/our-campaig...ing--the-myths

Would be interested in hearing the hunt's rebuttal, if it amounts to any more than a rather perfunctory "every little helps", OR the usual ad hominen.

As far as I can see what it boils down to is a simple question: Should the law condone the killing of an animal predominantly for pleasure?

Here is my opinion: Culling is little more than a flimsy pretext that does not stand up to scrutiny generated by people to masquerade cruelty behind issues of argricultural necessity, ceremony and tradition.

I've nothing against pomp, ceremony and tradition and if there is scientific evidence for the necessity of culling in a humane fashion I wouldn't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when said culling involves infliting protracted suffering on an animal for mass entertainment. I also have a problem with the fimsy excuses banded around to perpetuate hunting and the attempts to obfuscate what is a pretty basic animal rights issue by conflating it with issues of class etc...

Anyone who takes part in such a pursuit, irrespective of their demographic, needs to ask some serious questions about the quality of their character!

Ns04

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Registered hunts killing between 21,000 and 25,000 is a considerable number of foxes to be left to breed and could quite easily cause a bit of a population explosion multiplied year on year for the past 11yrs.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Excellent post.

People who indulge in this 'sport' are nothing more than sadists and when they try and dress it up as vermin control they make themselves look stupid as well as nasty!

The fact that Cameron and his buddies want to restore it to the statute books is no real surprise.... it illustrates perfectly the character of the man! As said earlier by implication he's a **** as is anyone who supports this 'sport'!

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Asssuming, in the absence of cited evidence, that this number of foxes not being culled would present a population problem that nature would not self-regulate (I'd be very interested to see any reputable scientific evidence to this end) the question still remains.

Should the law allow these animals to be "culled" in an inhumane way as part of ritualistic/ceremonal entertainment?

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Just as a matter of interest, where do you live foxy? Too far north to encounter me unfortunately. Still, if you see some bright lights heading your way in the night you'd better stay in your den!!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

I'd be very curious to know where you got those figures from, not least because just a few posts ago you were telling me to go and google if I wanted statistics of any kind. What I do know for a fact though is that there around 200 registered hunts in the UK (Scotland and NI included), so for your figures to be correct, it would mean they'd have to be dispatching one fox each roughly every 3 days. That seems pretty unlikely, as I'd be surprised if many of them even meet more than once a week.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

It doesn't offend me quite as much as it appears to offend others, i'm no stranger to the countryside and the stark realities of the life and death cycle there in. Speaking as an ex city boy I think city folk have become very detached from nature, farming and the food chain particularly in the last 50yrs or so.

This has served to sensitise people to blood sports and cruelty to animals, personally I prefer to dispatch animals as quickly and cleanly as possible, (who in their right mind wouldn't) regrettably the reality is often somewhat different.

The problem with hunting foxes is they are canny buggers (the country ones at least) they move quickly in difficult terrain and are elusive and hard to spot even when they're right in front of you, then you have a split second to take a shot, and tbh you're just trying to get one in it at 100/200yds and more sometimes, whilst also taking into consideration where the bullet could go if it ricochets off the ground in front of it (like up to 1000m in every direction) which is fine in the Scottish highlands, but on a normal ish farm in the UK with roads, houses, typically close to a village you want to be pretty sure you're going to be hitting it, despite all the bravado that goes with it of the boys down the range shooting paper targets or at the Clay club, it's not an easy thing to do when you're out in the field, cold and muddy and been in the same spot for 2/3hrs and more sometimes.

Then if you do hit it and it's still moving you have to decide if your going to put another one in it, with the same level of risk and a shot of adrenalin in your arm, or up sticks grab your gear and peg it across a muddy field to get closer.

I'm not saying any method is nice, because it isn't, killing something is never nice, it's something that needs doing sometimes and if you're in that environment for what ever reason it's just the way it is. I have always been interested in the countryside and the way of life, living off what it can provide, hunting, fishing, horse riding etc, probably comes from watching Tarzan, Grizzly Adams, Cowboys and Indians and growing up in a time when kids played outside and went on adventures.

There are other aspects to Fox hunting and hunting in general, Tradition, History, jobs such as Blacksmiths, Saddle Makers, Specialist Vets, Game Keepers, Groundsmen, Woodsmen and a whole host of farm workers and associated trades and suppliers, once these skills and businesses and knowledge are lost, they are gone forever.

It's all intertwined and part of our heritage , like it or not.

Where does this banning culture stop, what's next?

Let's not forget that one of the most loved dogs on the planet wouldn't exist without the Rev/ Parson Jack Russell.