Understeer - what suspension upgrade next?
04 January 2011, 11:31 AM
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Understeer - what suspension upgrade next?
I attended a track day at a go kart track in Cyprus on the weekend. I have a bugeye JDM Sti, which has AST coilovers, Whiteline ALK, rear ARB steel link kit and f & r 22m ARB.
While i know that a go kart track may not be the best place to use a modified Subaru, I was surprised how bad the car performed in the slow speed corners. I was understeering off the track and would not turn in, no matter how I approached the corner.
It was at least 4 seconds slower than a bog standard JDM Sti hatch, which looked painfully slow and at least 6-7 seconds slower than where it should be.
Although I do not want to go oveboard I would like it to perform better on the track, with an added side bonus being that it will be better on the road as well and better on a full size track that is being built.
What is the next logical upgrade?
I was considering some top mounts to adjust camber/caster -any recommendation for a brand?
Whiteline camber adjustment bolts
Whiteline subframe lock kit and rear diff bushes
I notice that CDF has a special on various bits. Would there be any benefit in changing the Whiteline ALK and rear link with the CDF items?
Also is is worth changing the front STi link with the CDF one.
Thanks
While i know that a go kart track may not be the best place to use a modified Subaru, I was surprised how bad the car performed in the slow speed corners. I was understeering off the track and would not turn in, no matter how I approached the corner.
It was at least 4 seconds slower than a bog standard JDM Sti hatch, which looked painfully slow and at least 6-7 seconds slower than where it should be.
Although I do not want to go oveboard I would like it to perform better on the track, with an added side bonus being that it will be better on the road as well and better on a full size track that is being built.
What is the next logical upgrade?
I was considering some top mounts to adjust camber/caster -any recommendation for a brand?
Whiteline camber adjustment bolts
Whiteline subframe lock kit and rear diff bushes
I notice that CDF has a special on various bits. Would there be any benefit in changing the Whiteline ALK and rear link with the CDF items?
Also is is worth changing the front STi link with the CDF one.
Thanks
04 January 2011, 12:05 PM
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Maybe you were trying too hard, AWD isn't a cure for poor handling, it's an aid to traction.
Is the rear bar on it's stiffest setting ? 24mm rear adjustable bar next maybe.
dunx
Is the rear bar on it's stiffest setting ? 24mm rear adjustable bar next maybe.
dunx
04 January 2011, 12:12 PM
#3
With my rally car I found it made a massive difference to the way it handled with different settings on my DCCD , I fitted a neetronics diff controller , maybe it would be worth looking into fitting one into yours to make it better on the track.
On tarmac I had it more RWD and it turned in and drove out of bends very well
On tarmac I had it more RWD and it turned in and drove out of bends very well
04 January 2011, 01:02 PM
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Maybe you were trying too hard, AWD isn't a cure for poor handling, it's an aid to traction.
Is the rear bar on it's stiffest setting ? 24mm rear adjustable bar next maybe.
Is the rear bar on it's stiffest setting ? 24mm rear adjustable bar next maybe.
Sadly mine is pre DCCD, so traction is aided only by my right foot.
04 January 2011, 01:04 PM
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Should also state that i also tried the very slow in and very slow out where I did not apply power until I had straightened, obviously less understeer but still a 64sec time as slower through corner meant slower coming onto the short straights.
04 January 2011, 03:02 PM
#6
This is a tricky issue; Imprezas and slow tight corners have never been its forté IMO. Many times have I slid wide turning right on a mini roundabout, and being honest in standard form is the worst car I've ever had for understeer on tight bends. What Im saying is we are starting off on a poor base IYSWIM.
It seems you've done most of the usual handling mods, So I'm guessing its case of adjustment of ARB/spring/damper rates, and sorting out the front geometry a bit more.
First off, I'd guess seeing you are slower than a standard STi hatch (despite a guessed extra 100bhp? ), and forgetting driving style, its quite possible you have some settings too stiff on your springs, dampers and front ARB. You probably know this, but stiffer is not always better. A standard Sti hatch will likely to have much softer suspension setting as stock.
Camber bolts would be my gut feeling for future mods, but first I'd like a play spring/damping and ARB rates; depending on how smooth the track is. Maybe softer front springs+ bump on the dampening to compensate for the stiffer front ARB, or possibly swapping the front ARB to a softer setting (and stiffer rear).
I believe there is a issue with the inherant nature of the rear LSD working on tight turns which can prevents the car making clean turns. Not much you can do about it except with DCCD or if you have enough instant snap-throttle power to break rear traction on command and turn it into a drift fest...tell me, are you dropping below 3500rpm on that MD321T? If so maybe time for anti lag to keep it spinning.
.
Its worth noting the hatches have superior front lower arms and mounting rigidity than found with the older chassis suspension. This, along with the stability control (the driver may have cheated
), probably makes it turn in a bit more cleanly.
It seems you've done most of the usual handling mods, So I'm guessing its case of adjustment of ARB/spring/damper rates, and sorting out the front geometry a bit more.
First off, I'd guess seeing you are slower than a standard STi hatch (despite a guessed extra 100bhp? ), and forgetting driving style, its quite possible you have some settings too stiff on your springs, dampers and front ARB. You probably know this, but stiffer is not always better. A standard Sti hatch will likely to have much softer suspension setting as stock.
Camber bolts would be my gut feeling for future mods, but first I'd like a play spring/damping and ARB rates; depending on how smooth the track is. Maybe softer front springs+ bump on the dampening to compensate for the stiffer front ARB, or possibly swapping the front ARB to a softer setting (and stiffer rear).
I believe there is a issue with the inherant nature of the rear LSD working on tight turns which can prevents the car making clean turns. Not much you can do about it except with DCCD or if you have enough instant snap-throttle power to break rear traction on command and turn it into a drift fest...tell me, are you dropping below 3500rpm on that MD321T? If so maybe time for anti lag to keep it spinning.
.Its worth noting the hatches have superior front lower arms and mounting rigidity than found with the older chassis suspension. This, along with the stability control (the driver may have cheated
), probably makes it turn in a bit more cleanly.
Last edited by ALi-B; 04 January 2011 at 03:10 PM.
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04 January 2011, 03:37 PM
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You are right it is very bad on the really tight stuff and does not want to turn in. You are right on the bhp guess, 1.3bar low boost setting about 400bhp, so about 100bhp difference. I was used to my hillclimb WRX which has Kaaz and Quafe diffs plus the 3 way AST's and most of the Whiteline catalogue so was a bit shocked at the behaviour, which probably led to a deterioration in driving standards.
I think the camber bolts may be the way to go, plus looking at the ARB settings. I will check, but believe that the front is non adjustable, while the rear is adjustable. So I should look at softer damping at th front, softer front springs and/or softer ARB setting if adjustable with a harder setting of rear ARB.
Are adjustable top mounts worthe the expense or will the camber bolts suffice?
On the power front it did have enough power to break rear traction especially when I decided to try high boost. I did turn it into a drift fest as I was getting frustrated and thought I may as well have some fun. Guess what 64 sec time, although was hitting just over 70mph down the straight. Although it was dropping below 3000rpm in the slow corners it spools from there and wheelpsins like crazy through second and into third. However I am thinking about setting up the anti lag on the Autronic.
It will be interesting to see what the hillclimb car will do when I take it and see what the STi will do when sorted.
I think the camber bolts may be the way to go, plus looking at the ARB settings. I will check, but believe that the front is non adjustable, while the rear is adjustable. So I should look at softer damping at th front, softer front springs and/or softer ARB setting if adjustable with a harder setting of rear ARB.
Are adjustable top mounts worthe the expense or will the camber bolts suffice?
On the power front it did have enough power to break rear traction especially when I decided to try high boost. I did turn it into a drift fest as I was getting frustrated and thought I may as well have some fun. Guess what 64 sec time, although was hitting just over 70mph down the straight. Although it was dropping below 3000rpm in the slow corners it spools from there and wheelpsins like crazy through second and into third. However I am thinking about setting up the anti lag on the Autronic.
It will be interesting to see what the hillclimb car will do when I take it and see what the STi will do when sorted.
04 January 2011, 03:38 PM
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Tyres are 225/40/18 Toyo T1R. Been on the car for about six months, only 3000 miles. Despite understeer not as squealy as the STi hatch which had Michlein Pilot.
04 January 2011, 03:51 PM
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Some pictures of the day.
The STi hatch
Understeer
Mine is the bugeye. The blobeye did not race.
The Mazda is a hillclimb competitor and was running 57 secs.
The STi hatch Understeer Mine is the bugeye. The blobeye did not race. The Mazda is a hillclimb competitor and was running 57 secs.
04 January 2011, 05:04 PM
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Oh nice Prodrive edition car by the looks
Dont worry too much about the hatch leaving you, they have vastly improved the car since the good old days and on a circuit with corners I would have expected it to be a good 4-5 seconds quicker, thats how much better they have become, as for the understeer, over enthusiastic on the throttle or maybe the tyres.
Tony
Dont worry too much about the hatch leaving you, they have vastly improved the car since the good old days and on a circuit with corners I would have expected it to be a good 4-5 seconds quicker, thats how much better they have become, as for the understeer, over enthusiastic on the throttle or maybe the tyres.
Tony
04 January 2011, 06:14 PM
#14
Lots of good points have already been suggested > rear ARB on the stiffest setting, T1R's are no good IMHO and tyre pressures would need to be around 25psi when cold. If you can get DCCD fitted to the car it would help greatly, getting someone to adjust the camber, toe & castor would hopefully sort it out 
04 January 2011, 09:07 PM
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T1R's were crap-pe on mine, I killed them...
Some tweaks to the geometry will help, but if it's a road car then it may affect tyre wear.
Better tyres and a stiff rear bar would help add some oversteer, but when mine was a 50:50 split it preferred to understeer. So I bought a hawkeye DCCD box instead.
It still needs a bit of room to throw it in hard enough for the rear to step out, so a kart circuit may have been a bit tight.
In the end it could be made quicker, but is it still really a road car ( like mine ) so tyre wear is an issue.
dunx
P.S. On R888's mine is astonishing, BUT I can make it understeer if I get too excited...
P.P.S. Car also seems too soft, as it's rolling way to much, IMHO.
Some tweaks to the geometry will help, but if it's a road car then it may affect tyre wear.
Better tyres and a stiff rear bar would help add some oversteer, but when mine was a 50:50 split it preferred to understeer. So I bought a hawkeye DCCD box instead.
It still needs a bit of room to throw it in hard enough for the rear to step out, so a kart circuit may have been a bit tight.
In the end it could be made quicker, but is it still really a road car ( like mine ) so tyre wear is an issue.
dunx
P.S. On R888's mine is astonishing, BUT I can make it understeer if I get too excited...
P.P.S. Car also seems too soft, as it's rolling way to much, IMHO.
Last edited by dunx; 04 January 2011 at 09:08 PM.
04 January 2011, 09:27 PM
#17
One of the issues I have with the t1r's is the sidewall, which flexes in conditions like the above, particularly on the fronts. Looking at the angles above the fronts are just slipping away, probably as the front outside tyre is folding on itself.
When I used them for hillclimbing, so similar hard corner conditions, I would have have traction marks half way up the tyre at the end of a run!
Tyres and geometry will help no end- I am using yoko advan ad08's, and the difference in grip, and sidewall flex, is massive- car is 3-4 seconds faster on a 50 second run just due to the rubber I would say.
When I used them for hillclimbing, so similar hard corner conditions, I would have have traction marks half way up the tyre at the end of a run!
Tyres and geometry will help no end- I am using yoko advan ad08's, and the difference in grip, and sidewall flex, is massive- car is 3-4 seconds faster on a 50 second run just due to the rubber I would say.
04 January 2011, 09:35 PM
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First off, never mind tires. Sorry guys, but better tires only gives more grip, it does not adress the issue at hand here! It can cover your poor wheel alignments since you dont go fast enough, or it can cover your poor driving skills since you have "infinite" grip, but all in all, tires changes nothing. Use ****ty tires until you are skilled. youll learn better.
I like your mods, but you never mentioned the most important part - alignments. You should definately get an alignment and get some more spirited angles on it. Id suggest at least 2 degrees of camber up front, and approx 0.5 less rear. Some toe out rear will adress understeer with great effect as well, but note that you should not do much toe out If you run lots of high speed (~120mph +?) as the car can feel unstable in high speeds.
From memory my angles are about camber: 2.4/1.8, toe 0/1 FR. Rear bar sett to stiffest. More camber = more grip. Increase front for oversteer turn in, rear for understeer. For street, dont go much over 2-2.5. Track or slicks: Use at least what your tire manufacturer suggest.
The following "tuning" should only be done with good wheel alignments.
Up front as suggested you could try softening the setup. I noticed you had the fully adjustable AST kit. The following is not absoulute, but general. Im not shure if you can adjust your spring rates, but they should not be changed before trying the following bound/rebound adjustments.
As you turn in, to increase weight (giving traction) on the wheel, you can either decrease bound, or increase rebound. Preferably both. When you turn in, the softer shocks will allow more weight on the wheel, But note that this WILL change the balance of the car in the rest of the turn as well. Lets cal it turn in, apex and acceleration. I dont have the skills and experience to explain all parts of the shock "tuning", but Ive done this, and what I found is that when you get better (less understeer) in turn in, apex and acceleration suffers. A DCCD tranny can help with its rear wheel bias, but its all a balance.
Good luck.
I like your mods, but you never mentioned the most important part - alignments. You should definately get an alignment and get some more spirited angles on it. Id suggest at least 2 degrees of camber up front, and approx 0.5 less rear. Some toe out rear will adress understeer with great effect as well, but note that you should not do much toe out If you run lots of high speed (~120mph +?) as the car can feel unstable in high speeds.
From memory my angles are about camber: 2.4/1.8, toe 0/1 FR. Rear bar sett to stiffest. More camber = more grip. Increase front for oversteer turn in, rear for understeer. For street, dont go much over 2-2.5. Track or slicks: Use at least what your tire manufacturer suggest.
The following "tuning" should only be done with good wheel alignments.
Up front as suggested you could try softening the setup. I noticed you had the fully adjustable AST kit. The following is not absoulute, but general. Im not shure if you can adjust your spring rates, but they should not be changed before trying the following bound/rebound adjustments.
As you turn in, to increase weight (giving traction) on the wheel, you can either decrease bound, or increase rebound. Preferably both. When you turn in, the softer shocks will allow more weight on the wheel, But note that this WILL change the balance of the car in the rest of the turn as well. Lets cal it turn in, apex and acceleration. I dont have the skills and experience to explain all parts of the shock "tuning", but Ive done this, and what I found is that when you get better (less understeer) in turn in, apex and acceleration suffers. A DCCD tranny can help with its rear wheel bias, but its all a balance.
Good luck.
05 January 2011, 10:20 AM
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First off, never mind tires. Sorry guys, but better tires only gives more grip, it does not adress the issue at hand here! It can cover your poor wheel alignments since you dont go fast enough, or it can cover your poor driving skills since you have "infinite" grip, but all in all, tires changes nothing. Use ****ty tires until you are skilled. youll learn better.
I like your mods, but you never mentioned the most important part - alignments. You should definately get an alignment and get some more spirited angles on it. Id suggest at least 2 degrees of camber up front, and approx 0.5 less rear. Some toe out rear will adress understeer with great effect as well, but note that you should not do much toe out If you run lots of high speed (~120mph +?) as the car can feel unstable in high speeds.
From memory my angles are about camber: 2.4/1.8, toe 0/1 FR. Rear bar sett to stiffest. More camber = more grip. Increase front for oversteer turn in, rear for understeer. For street, dont go much over 2-2.5. Track or slicks: Use at least what your tire manufacturer suggest.
The following "tuning" should only be done with good wheel alignments.
Up front as suggested you could try softening the setup. I noticed you had the fully adjustable AST kit. The following is not absoulute, but general. Im not shure if you can adjust your spring rates, but they should not be changed before trying the following bound/rebound adjustments.
As you turn in, to increase weight (giving traction) on the wheel, you can either decrease bound, or increase rebound. Preferably both. When you turn in, the softer shocks will allow more weight on the wheel, But note that this WILL change the balance of the car in the rest of the turn as well. Lets cal it turn in, apex and acceleration. I dont have the skills and experience to explain all parts of the shock "tuning", but Ive done this, and what I found is that when you get better (less understeer) in turn in, apex and acceleration suffers. A DCCD tranny can help with its rear wheel bias, but its all a balance.
Good luck.
I like your mods, but you never mentioned the most important part - alignments. You should definately get an alignment and get some more spirited angles on it. Id suggest at least 2 degrees of camber up front, and approx 0.5 less rear. Some toe out rear will adress understeer with great effect as well, but note that you should not do much toe out If you run lots of high speed (~120mph +?) as the car can feel unstable in high speeds.
From memory my angles are about camber: 2.4/1.8, toe 0/1 FR. Rear bar sett to stiffest. More camber = more grip. Increase front for oversteer turn in, rear for understeer. For street, dont go much over 2-2.5. Track or slicks: Use at least what your tire manufacturer suggest.
The following "tuning" should only be done with good wheel alignments.
Up front as suggested you could try softening the setup. I noticed you had the fully adjustable AST kit. The following is not absoulute, but general. Im not shure if you can adjust your spring rates, but they should not be changed before trying the following bound/rebound adjustments.
As you turn in, to increase weight (giving traction) on the wheel, you can either decrease bound, or increase rebound. Preferably both. When you turn in, the softer shocks will allow more weight on the wheel, But note that this WILL change the balance of the car in the rest of the turn as well. Lets cal it turn in, apex and acceleration. I dont have the skills and experience to explain all parts of the shock "tuning", but Ive done this, and what I found is that when you get better (less understeer) in turn in, apex and acceleration suffers. A DCCD tranny can help with its rear wheel bias, but its all a balance.
Good luck.
dont agree on the tyres, he is already using sh1tty ones 
and depending on the compound that is used, a tyre can go "off" with heat, meaning less grip and can cause more understeer.Its all parcel and package, tyres give you your only contact to the road so mechanical grip, improving said grip as you have mentioned, by the use of changes in the camber/alignment will also improve the handling and turn in, but the car should be fairly well setup anyway, you just have to look at the S202 to see how well a none dccd car can handle
Tony
05 January 2011, 05:07 PM
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[QUOTE=HRT;9799589]
Understeer
to me this looks like a classic case of too fast into the corner = understeer.as said before imprezas are known to suffer from understeer but,just by looking at the pic you are a mile away from were you should be.you have either overshot the corner and just turned the wheel suddenly which has resulted in understeer,or you have come way too fast into the corner ,turned the wheel and the car has understeered.i did the very same thing the first time i went out at elvington on there small tight track.you might benifit from some more suspension mods but most of the time on tight tracks its a case of getting your speed down enough to take the corner properly and being in the correct gear to power out properly.i find that it works better for me on a tight track to soften the damping on the front a little more than the rear so that the front end dips and digs in more.
Understeerto me this looks like a classic case of too fast into the corner = understeer.as said before imprezas are known to suffer from understeer but,just by looking at the pic you are a mile away from were you should be.you have either overshot the corner and just turned the wheel suddenly which has resulted in understeer,or you have come way too fast into the corner ,turned the wheel and the car has understeered.i did the very same thing the first time i went out at elvington on there small tight track.you might benifit from some more suspension mods but most of the time on tight tracks its a case of getting your speed down enough to take the corner properly and being in the correct gear to power out properly.i find that it works better for me on a tight track to soften the damping on the front a little more than the rear so that the front end dips and digs in more.
05 January 2011, 10:14 PM
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Thanks guys. All very valid points.
I had an alignment done the day before and they did say that I should get some top mounts to adjust the camber further.
I think the problem was due to:
ME. I was trying too hard as I am used to the fast hillclimbs that I usually attend in the WRX. I admit that at first I was missing the apex, as the car was so bloody quick in between corners and I was mashing the throttle and I was on the brakes too late and hard, which upset the balance on turn in. Although as stated when I did slow it down and corrected my lines, it would just understeer as soon as any power applied.
Dunx, I ultimately tried high boost and the hurl it in and lift off with some major angles achieved and two spins right at the end from losing the rear. It was fun. Sadly no pictures apart from me in the dirt.
Crappy tyres - Will live with these for the moment as they are fairly new, as my 17 inch wheels with R888 will not fit over the front APs. Next set of tyres may need to be a bit more track biased though not R888 for everyday use. Very noisy. Funny thing is for the hillclimb car, I will be moving to slicks as I have found teh limits of the R888.
Too high pressures - 30psi cold as I was worried about the tyre wall folding. seems it still did as can see wear on the tyre wall. Will try lower next time.
Inherent understeer of the car.
I had a look today and have the front non adjustable 22mm Whiteline bar. Is it worth changing? To what?
Rear ARB is adjustable. It is on the middle setting. To make it harder do I go to the end hole or the first hole on the inside?
I will buy the Whiteline camber bolts, although do they give enough adjustment by themselves or do I need adjustable top mounts?
Lower the car slightly as well as it is sitting a bit high.
Maybe look at a set of Polybush for the whole car as well, as I am sure that standard bushes are on the way out, hence roll and the car looking and feeling soft.
Obviously I have the WRX as my true track car and I must admit the Sti is a cracking car as a daily driver. On the road none of these issues are evident and I would not want to stray too far just to make it faster on a go kart track.
Yes it was Alen Bells car.
Thanks
I had an alignment done the day before and they did say that I should get some top mounts to adjust the camber further.
I think the problem was due to:
ME. I was trying too hard as I am used to the fast hillclimbs that I usually attend in the WRX. I admit that at first I was missing the apex, as the car was so bloody quick in between corners and I was mashing the throttle and I was on the brakes too late and hard, which upset the balance on turn in. Although as stated when I did slow it down and corrected my lines, it would just understeer as soon as any power applied.
Dunx, I ultimately tried high boost and the hurl it in and lift off with some major angles achieved and two spins right at the end from losing the rear. It was fun.
Sadly no pictures apart from me in the dirt.Crappy tyres - Will live with these for the moment as they are fairly new, as my 17 inch wheels with R888 will not fit over the front APs. Next set of tyres may need to be a bit more track biased though not R888 for everyday use. Very noisy. Funny thing is for the hillclimb car, I will be moving to slicks as I have found teh limits of the R888.
Too high pressures - 30psi cold as I was worried about the tyre wall folding. seems it still did as can see wear on the tyre wall. Will try lower next time.
Inherent understeer of the car.
I had a look today and have the front non adjustable 22mm Whiteline bar. Is it worth changing? To what?
Rear ARB is adjustable. It is on the middle setting. To make it harder do I go to the end hole or the first hole on the inside?
I will buy the Whiteline camber bolts, although do they give enough adjustment by themselves or do I need adjustable top mounts?
Lower the car slightly as well as it is sitting a bit high.
Maybe look at a set of Polybush for the whole car as well, as I am sure that standard bushes are on the way out, hence roll and the car looking and feeling soft.
Obviously I have the WRX as my true track car and I must admit the Sti is a cracking car as a daily driver. On the road none of these issues are evident and I would not want to stray too far just to make it faster on a go kart track.
Yes it was Alen Bells car.
Thanks
05 January 2011, 10:35 PM
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and depending on the compound that is used, a tyre can go "off" with heat, meaning less grip and can cause more understeer.
Its all parcel and package, tyres give you your only contact to the road so mechanical grip, improving said grip as you have mentioned, by the use of changes in the camber/alignment will also improve the handling and turn in, but the car should be fairly well setup anyway, you just have to look at the S202 to see how well a none dccd car can handle
Tony
Its all parcel and package, tyres give you your only contact to the road so mechanical grip, improving said grip as you have mentioned, by the use of changes in the camber/alignment will also improve the handling and turn in, but the car should be fairly well setup anyway, you just have to look at the S202 to see how well a none dccd car can handle
Tony
Tires wont change that. As I recall it, I didnt say non DCCD had poor handling, I said the rear bias torque split could help you out of corners if suspension setup was optimized for turn in, causing understeer out of the turn.
06 January 2011, 07:20 AM
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T1R's are reasonable road tyres, not decent, just reasonable
Not track either
I have seen good spec tyres fitted to road cars that go off pretty quick with heat put into them (Yoko's) on an Evo9, but the above still looks like the driver is going in too quickly to the corner and getting understeer from that.
The tyres wont really cover up agressive driving style, just wear them out very quickly
Tony
Not track either
I have seen good spec tyres fitted to road cars that go off pretty quick with heat put into them (Yoko's) on an Evo9, but the above still looks like the driver is going in too quickly to the corner and getting understeer from that.The tyres wont really cover up agressive driving style, just wear them out very quickly
Tony
06 January 2011, 10:35 PM
#27
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Right given it is a road car, use the top mounts to add more castor, this will add dynamic camber as you add lock, then the car will transfer more load onto the front tyres.
I was advised to swap the left hand unit to the right side and vice versa.
I run the same front bar but it's adjustable - on stiff...
I use R888's on the road, sod the noise, I want grip !
The rear bar is stiffer using the holes nearest the bar's mounts...
The car's rolling is either soft springing and/or insufficient damping, ideally stiffer springs are needed, but with just sufficient damping to maintain ride and handling needs for a road car.
I fitted Tein's to mine and they are a tad harsh on the mean streets of South Leeds, but on track they are much better suited. Camber bolts may help on the rear, I run 2 degrees F and 1.8 degrees R ( with the rear 22mm ARB on "stiff" ), I can chuck it at a roundabout and she'll lift-off oversteer nicely...
Since I added DCCD I can now tweak the torque to the rear and it becomes much more fun.
All IMHO.
dunx
I was advised to swap the left hand unit to the right side and vice versa.
I run the same front bar but it's adjustable - on stiff...
I use R888's on the road, sod the noise, I want grip !
The rear bar is stiffer using the holes nearest the bar's mounts...
The car's rolling is either soft springing and/or insufficient damping, ideally stiffer springs are needed, but with just sufficient damping to maintain ride and handling needs for a road car.
I fitted Tein's to mine and they are a tad harsh on the mean streets of South Leeds, but on track they are much better suited. Camber bolts may help on the rear, I run 2 degrees F and 1.8 degrees R ( with the rear 22mm ARB on "stiff" ), I can chuck it at a roundabout and she'll lift-off oversteer nicely...
Since I added DCCD I can now tweak the torque to the rear and it becomes much more fun.
All IMHO.
dunx
Last edited by dunx; 06 January 2011 at 10:40 PM.
12 January 2011, 11:15 AM
#29
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Location: Trying to balance the budget as running two Scoobies
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Still going strong Alan. Bit less power as only running 100 octane, 400bhp atw, which is about 460-470. Loves the coldish 15 degree air temps at the moment.
Apart from the minor oil leak that was there from when I bought it and then the period of running on 3 cylinders, it has been fine. Only consumables, such as clutch, AST rebuild and brake pads so far. And the small matter of fuel bills.
Apart from the minor oil leak that was there from when I bought it and then the period of running on 3 cylinders, it has been fine. Only consumables, such as clutch, AST rebuild and brake pads so far. And the small matter of fuel bills.
12 January 2011, 10:57 PM
#30
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HRT - One thing I'd like to add to all the good info on here (especially regarding driving style) is the basic issue of setup, specifically in your case, ride height. I personally feel you are set up much too low up front. Your front roll center is truly subterranean and you are very likely resting (or close to resting) on the bumpstops at your current static ride height. The low roll center means you will have much more roll leading to more positive camber of your outside wheel on turn in. With your low ride height, you are already deep into the positive camber arc of the strut/control arm. You will have very little grip on your outside front wheel as soon as you turn as you'll be driving on the shoulders of the tires the whole time. You may actually experience some coil bind or full engagement of the bumpstop on that outside wheel leading to a large increase in spring rate and more understeer.
I would consider raising the front ride height to 360mm, center of hub to bottom of guard. Keep your camber where it is and zero out your toe. I think you'll notice a big improvement in front end grip just by doing this. As far as parts go, to further improve your front end grip, I would also look into the Whiteline ROCK (Roll Center Adjustment Kit). I've been very impressed with what this geometry kit has done for front end grip, reduced roll and better turn in.
My personal rule of thumb when it comes to ride height setting is "If it looks dope, it handles like crap". Meaning, if your car is slammed and looks great, you have compromised the basic suspension geometry so much that it will handle like poo. If the car is higher and looks stupid, it will run circles around slammed cars. A lower center of gravity is, IMO, one of the least significant factors in getting a street car to handle well. I would rather maintain proper geometry and look silly with big front fender gaps than having a raked front end, no gaps and a poor handling car.
Last edited by Arnie_1; 12 January 2011 at 11:03 PM.