Gigsy

This thread is turning into more and more of a reason to have a Mapping / Engine Management section.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree mate
I think most points have been made now and obviously everyone's not gonna agree , to which there is nowt wrong with that

I'm about done with this one now it's just gonna go round and round

One last thing to the chaps who have posted comments on this thread and have without a doubt a lot of knowledge on the topic of mapping
Please chip in if we do get a section because regardless of what you may think I am ( gobby , know it all , self opinionated , )Myself and other members could learn a lot and think your help and advice would be priceless

Cheers tony

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

If a mapping section was started Toneh would you be prepared to post up a step by step guide on how you have mapped yours?

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

I honestly disagree mate. Let me elaborate as to why though.

Given the choice of:

A) A mapper that builds a few race engines and has known happy customers out there but refuses to do your ecu OS unless you have an accurate definition file because he doesnt know how to make one.

or

B) A mapper that will do it regardless as he is happy to mess about with a laptop and hex file for hours working out a def file for your ecu, but you dont know how much he knows about engines or what is required to make them work correctly.

Who would you choose? I know who I would choose... the definition file creation has nothing to do with mapping. Its like saying you wouldnt let me create you a website with dreamweaver just because I cant program my own version of dreamweaver from scratch, even though I can write HTML 5 directly in code If I have to. Its daft, just as daft as not lettinga mechanic touch your car unless he can actually forge his own socket set from liquid metal in his own foundry.

Its just a tool, and their knowledge of its coding or assembly is not relevant to their skills at producing an end product.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

I would certainly try and give some input
But like I've said , I'm no whizz kid and what I may think is an acceptable method or tweak may well be frowned upon
Ive still got a lot to learn and consider myself to know very little in the greater scheme of things
But if I can help or im considered worthy of listening to
I'd do what I could

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

As a better example, pictorially, here is the raw code from a rom i deciphered manually about 20 years ago.

Hex:


2D representation of the same area.



Thats 1 page of over 300, and its ina tiny 8kb file. I am currently working with 16mb files with 16000+ maps and switches. Do you think the skill required to decipher this code relates in any way to my ability to make an engine run correctly, and to understand air fuel ratios, detonation, transient fuelling and all the mechanical aspects that go with it?

Surely, your answer can only be "NO"?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

We are just gonna have to agree to disagree mate
I see it that if the man can produce the tool that will help or get him to the final stage ,has got more about him , agreed the end result is the most important part but I think it takes a little more effort and deeper interest

Are we gettin a mapping section stu , how many do we need
We could be discussing this in there

Tony

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

I would rather be ripped off than make a mistake and **** my whole engine, plus there is no way a novice can get similar figures to what a skilled mapper can!

Why would you spend ridiculous amounts of money modifiying a car to then worry about say another £300 which would then be in theory safer for your car??

Words fail me for the stupidity of some people.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

So if I hire a programming geek from the local college and have him write something that will decipher ecu firmware and create definitions correctly, you will be happy to let him crack on and map the car too then due to his computer abilities? really?!!?

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

It looks that way mate, but I wont have time to do it until next week.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

No , but here's a question if you have mechanical knowledge ( which I'm pretty sure ) then who would I rather map my car you
Or scoobys ecu map tek who has recently been appointed as an agent , who's been involved deeper and got the bigger interest ?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Me too

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Cool are you gonna be our resident guru and general advisor

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Can I go now

AlanPPP

iTrader: (2)

Tbh all this thread has done is make me want a remap even more

chopperman

It has been in interesting thread and one i have followed from the start.
The original point made by the OP was mapping is easy so there-for "celeb" mapper are ripping us off.
Well for me after 21 pages i am neither convinced mapping is easy nor am i convinced mappers over charge and are guilty of scaremongering.
I don't accept the lack of pro mapper participation in this thread as an admission of
guilt as has been suggested. I think this thread was started as a witch-hunt but thankfully ended up an interesting debate.
Just my 2 pence.

EngineMapper @ Group B Motorsport

I haven't read the whole of this thread so forgive me if I'm repeating what has already been said.

My thoughts on DIY mapping are quite clear, go for it, on your own car where you can risk something that you have to pay for, have to maintain and is all at your own risk and nobody elses.

Mapping contrary to popular belief is not a black art at all which I think is the point ToneH has very badly tried to get across. But understanding what bits to change on your ECU rom image is one thing that although can be quite complex is much simpler than the overall knowledge needed to successfully map cars professionally.

Such skills that I feel defines and justifies the charge that a mapper has are:

• Fault finding on a much more technical level than most mechanics and master technicians
• Knowledge regarding compressor maps, turbo limits, optimum boost levels regarding efficiency
• Sensor limits, ecu limitations
• Engine management electronic fault finding, resistances, temperature related electronic issues
• Engine limitations, condition assessments and evaluation, ability to trace mechanical engine issues
• Longevity tuning, experience defined, egt assessment, afr/lambda understanding in regards to cylinder temperatures and pressures
• Understanding combustion propagation, flame front burn rate, the effects of the above with different piston design, head design, fuels, stroke, capacity
• Knock frequency identification, identifying knock from mechanical engine noise(s), identifying knock related cylinder problems
• Experience and knowledge of fuel limitations, fuel energy level, burn rates, compression levels for fuels, fueling systems, pump flow and pressure relationships in both design and implementation
• Oil control systems, pressure, viscosity, temperatures
• Understanding intimately ECU operations and functions, tune-ability, limitations, possible long term effects, sensor data interpretation, accurate and efficient data-logging

And there is quite a substantial amount more that could be listed.


An intimate knowledge of both software and mechanical/electronic engine performance has to be understood to be successful.



As Paul, (Pavlo), pointed out earlier in the thread, mappers don't just map the car. A large majority of the time the mapper is the last person to see the car following subsequent modifications, engine builds etc which may or may not have been carried out by those that understand the list I have given above. A disproportionate amount of time can be spent correcting problems that customers have made for themselves, or fault finding issues that could be avoided if everyone had the same knowledge that a mapper does. However not every does and those that do sometimes don't apply that in the correct manor. However what is known and a common theme come mapping time, is that the list of skills above is always drawn upon in some shape one way or another by the customer in regards to their car. This is ultimately what makes the mapper worth the time and the money spent.


Knowledge can of course be a dangerous thing used in the wrong context or without full understanding. Agreed, some are better than others and those that are good should be worth £500/hr because they just saved your engine from costing you 3k+ to rebuild.


Graham

k-jones-087

in my opinion its all about experience. yes mappers charge too much,all cars are different and some take to mapping well meaning very little time is spent mapping so paying 300+ for an hour(if the car is easily mapped) is way too exspensive.most mappers start as mechanics like me then learn how to map,its all about learning and getting experience, every guy mapping cars had to start from somewhere so yes i agree with original post.you can learn how to map your own car,just like all the experts.they all learned how to do it from somone else.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Oh no why did you have to say that ,,,,, you wait now , you're gonna get in soooooo much trouble and your worse off than me , 3 posts , you're gonna get bundled into a van and took to a secret location that only mappers know
And they'll , ,,,Well you know that probe that you thought went in the exhaust ,,,,well think again buddy !

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

You see with that one / you have made people think its far too over priced as how can £500 per hour justify saving a £3000 engine that had no problems before?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Was gonna say the same mate , but it's just gonna keep going round and round and then there's gonna be another reason Then another
If Folk are happy to pay 500 /hr let em
But if you know who they are point them in my direction , I'll change there brake pads for 1k ,,, but itll stop em crashing and save em 6k
Even better lets become paramedics and save a life , just think what that's worth
ridiculous

chopperman

I think the point was more directed at an engine that for what ever reason is no longer suited to a generic map, so requires a custom map to prevent damage and realise the engines full potential.

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

My engine is far far in excess of £3k but I could never justify £500/ hour. Maybe if you have a F1 car then that price is the norm?

toneh

iTrader: (1)

In my opinion 500/hr cannot be justified in any way shape or form
I personally think its supposed mean 500 per session
I hope that's what it is anyway ( but still not great )
Because if it's not then then words will fail me and the people who are charging it should be ashamed and know they would be taking total advantage
Of a customer
Please someone tell me that it's not £500 p/h

toneh

iTrader: (1)

anyway why you moanin
thought you would rather be ripped off ?

chopperman

I was more picking up on your point "saving a £3000 engine that had no problems before" than the £500 per hr figure. As for that figure, all i can say is i did not pay anywhere near that figure but my engine is not highly modded so can't comment on prices for huge power builds.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Would you say 500p/h is justified if its a high power build then ?

It's not 500p/h anyway I'm sure

daviee

Toneh fair play if you think it’s a rip off BUT!!! I chose Andy F for my map, that was over 20k ago on a chocolate 2.5 wrx still pulling strong and no coolant or oil issue’s.
I would let my wife map before you because she knows she knows nothing about mapping as do you sorry, but tweaking a few AFR tables, timing and boost levels I could do that.
What I paid for was Ekutek software proven and the licence fee goes back in to R&D that pays for the man hours that go into developing race rom etc, and the experience and proven track record of Andy F to get the most and sustainable bhp out of my set up.
To put it on layman’s terms the Chinese’s are very good at copying a bit like your good self, like them you will always feel wanting for the quality that is missing. Do your best and even the tenth best mapper in the country will make vast improvements on your map and probably save your engine, which is probably a 2.0 and as you know most are bomb proof.
If you want rip off you should have mention Prodrive PPP a few bits of hardware and one map fits all for just shy of £2k for 265 bhp. I bought a WR1 low mileage full system for £150 off ebay brand new prodrive y piece for £35, Meercat exhausts to fit desresoated £75 centre pipe and add 4 inches of stainless pipe in to 2nd decat pipe to suit hawkeye £80, £30 lower heat range plugs and £30 green panel and filter. Then £545 for Ecutek Andy F bespoke map 282 bhp and 350lbs of torque for £900, the last thing I feel is ripped off. Having read the full thread thats my tuppence worth.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Mate I've all but done with this thread now and if your happy with your car good ( and that's genuine ) and if your happy with the price you got all your mods done that's good too
But with all due respect you don't know me , my car or my mapping ability so to comment on the bits and bobs you've read here is a little unfair ( but hey it's your opinion and your entitled to it )
Like I've said 24 million times before I've never ever claimed to be a fantastic mapper ( read through it ) I'm also happy with my car it's an old bug which I've mapped myself for £20 (cable cost) and it would be a pretty safe bet it's running well above 282 , I too have no coolant or oil issues but I've only done coming up to 2000 miles on the current map
What do you want me to say mate , well done you've had a man map your car
Good on ya

daviee

I know I dont know you but if you were slagging off gas fitters or plumbers, I would have responded the same way. The last thing we would like is to see houses blowing up or water pouring out of letter flaps. These guys charge as a rule of thumb they are good at what they do, like all walks of life they are good and bad tradesmen. Just dont want to see a lot of horror stories comming out of this thread with the £20 lead and limited knowage. I appoligise for the letting my wife map before you, I would not let her wire a plug. But as long as they do their homework and ebb on the side of caution as one wrong value could destroy their engine, they will only have themselves to blame not you.