leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

I have an 04-06 usdm 2.5 block and want to fit a baffled sump so i dont get oil surge on the track.

Where to buy ? is my 1st question
Is it recommended not to buy second hand on this particular part ?
Do they just drop in existing sump ?
Are there any other such baffles on the market that do the same job ?

cheers in advance lee

stuart148

iTrader: (12)

hi mate howard at hdc subaru , whos just done my engine , baffled my sump for me , all these cosworth bits of tin are a waste of money , he charged me one hours labour to do it as the engine was already out

give him a call as he might have one that he will do and post out or go collect ???

stu

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

you got a number and is it a unit that just drops inafter sump is un bolted.

jura11

iTrader: (7)

Hi there i have fitted Cosworth Baffled sump,this you can pick up for around £180-£250.
Not sure about the second hand,but best bet is buy new.

And KillerB Motorsport selling something similar for good money and have very good reputation also.
http://www.killerbmotorsport.com/ind.../PartsList.htm

And bullet proof will be dry sump setup,but £2.5k

Jura

stuart148

iTrader: (12)

01422 846868

no i think he just cuts metal to shape and welds it in place ,, im not 100% on this tho so you might be best asking him

but i defo would rather than spending 150ish on a sump plate , then you need to get fit

stu ;-)

jayallen

iTrader: (31)

It takes a hell of a lot more time than an hour to fabricate a fully baffled sump fella, id like to see his finished product.

RA Dunk

Same here, I can't help but get the feeling theres got too be a bit of corner cutting somewhere here.

stevie1982

iTrader: (16)

Not knocking them directly but an hour to knock up and fabricate a baffled dump! Seems a bit questionable on its actual performance etc, not saying you NEED to buy a
£200 cosworth branded one but I hope we don't see a post in a few months time with an engine failure due to oil starvation issues. Seems funny to spend out thousands on a rebuild and then try and save £100 on a baffled sump.

Any how plenty of places sell them, give David at API a call tomorrow I am sure he can help you out

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Just bought a WRC baffled sump from a guy on here Il post pics can you let me know what you think

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

fittings not a problem as my mechanic is a works rally mechanic and is spot on !

killerbmotorsport

Here's a reply to a recent PM, but figured I'd share as it seem relevant here...

Our sump uses a flow through design (similar to the newer 2.5 STi and twin scroll sump) unlike the older horizontal baffled styles. We've found the horizontal baffles to be a double edged sword and not an idea design on the Subaru Boxer engine layout. Similarly we've seen no benefits from flat baffles like other pieces available.

The Subaru engine will pool oil in the outside head during cornering. Think of a cornering load the same as tipping your engine. The oil pools in the head facing the outside of the corner (or the head that's tipped downward on an engine stand/dyno). Under severe cornering, yes a flat baffle will help oil from sloshing out of the pan, BUT oil flowing from the other head can go across this baffle instead of into the bottom of the sump. Horizontal baffles also increase the amount of oil that can pool in each head before flowing back into the bottom of the sump.

Our replacement oil Baffle Windage tray and our sump's baffle are designed to direct oil downward to the sump wether it's coming from the crank or flowing back from the heads. We see spill-out as much less an issue because the heads pool oil long before oil begins to spill out of the sump.

A lot of the currently available baffling and oiling technology for Subarus are assumptions carried over from other makes/models, but just because those concepts work well on a V8, straight-6, etc., doesn't mean they are ideal on our Subaru boxer engines. Don't get me wrong here, some products are better than others and most are better than the factory bits. Our products come from a 'what's the problem, why and test, test, test philosophy'. We run CAD simulations, dyno testing and track testing to verify a design before its release.

Please let me know if you have anymore questions, and I'll try to do my best not to ramble on so much

Best regards,

Chris
Killer B Motorsport

P.S. That WRC baffle is a good find. VERY durable and intended to keep oil off the crank.

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Good read that chris thanks

Glad I made a good choice a bit pricy but as mentioned before don't want engine failure on my first outing .

RA Dunk

Any pics Chris?

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Il get it fitted and let you know how I get on with it

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

ive heard twin scroll sump is a good shout over a baffled one. what are yours guys thoughts? some people tell me the vaffled sumps stop working after a certain milage due to the rubbers weakning and not doing their job, making them worse?

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Rubbers is that on the flaps ?

jayallen

iTrader: (31)

Im guessing thats what he means.....You sump has no flaps, well flaps that close...looks like just open slots with no way of closing on hard cornering.

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Looking at those flaps you can definatly see there would be very restrictve flow as they are angled downwards and only a small opening is present.

I will get it fitted and testing I hope will be back end of July/early august and post results on here.
I am very curious to find out who made it and will email the seller to confirm this

killerbmotorsport

Here's a couple of pics of our baffle...





The newer 2.5 (aka; twin scroll sump) is definitly a better part for performance driving. It's formed right around the pickup and has the improved flow through type baffles. I recommend this sump to anyone that does any performance type driving on a budget.

The rubber flaps definitly have problems once they are heat cycled many times. They sag open and loose thier functionality.

From the pics of the sump you got, the baffle is to direct oil to the pickup, prevent splashback into the crank, and added strength so the pan cannot flatten into the pickup. It's better than the OEM stuff for the 2.0, but on road coarses where you can see higher cornering forces (compared to WRC) the twin scroll sump may perform better suited. I could be a bit off base here and/or splitting hairs. Either way, I think you took a step in the right direction with that purchase

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

So in retrospect chris your sump is equally suited to do the job as the wrc sump I purchased , what price and I'm sure everyone would like to know do you charge for your baffled sump ?

The only way I'm going to find out if it's good enough to do the job is to try it out and see.

Thanks for your input learning all the time

Lateral Performance

iTrader: (20)

Leecars,

I'm sorry but that sump is a "part made" copy of a GrpN sump. There are supposed to be rubber one way flaps covering the holes, that allow oil to enter the square box, but not exit.



There should also a frame inside the sump that creates 4 specific oil chambers, when the lid is fitted. The chambers are designed to always feed oil to the centre/oil pick up.

A fabricated version we did some time ago,


A good baffled sump will help prevent surge, and will be fine for most road cars, but for a "fast" track car, they are only a plaster, where stitches are needed, and even a proper Prodrive WRC sump has been proven to be inadequate !!!

I would suggest that where sumps are just having the two square holes, & around the top plate welded up, people are wasting their money. The Cosworth baffle plate will do a much better job.


Mark.
The only solution that works on a fast, well driven track car is a dry sump. system

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Mark, will the sump be ok then or are you saying it won't perform as it should do as the guy I bought it off had it fitted for 3k miles after a rebuild .

I cannot see from the pics he sent me wether there are plastic flaps fitted or not till I see it on Thursday .

Thanks for your knowledge

if anything surley it will help on the track than having a standered sump and what price are yours.

Cheers lee

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

A dry sump system I'm looking at 2k plus and I suppose after a rebuild this will be an option for me at a later date, but for now I will have to hope that the sump I have bought will do the job

Lateral Performance

iTrader: (20)

Lee,

Sorry, wasn't trying to sell the sumps, as I don't get them made any more, because the cost just got too high. The pictures were just to show how it should be made.

I can only assume that whoever made that sump doesn't understand the concept of how it's supposed to work.

It won't have flaps fitted, because it doesn't have the slots machined, where the flaps clip in. These could be done with a little effort, & the flaps are available.

Flaps will help to some extent, but without the box section in the sump, it's a big compromise, but much better than just a baffle plate.



Mark.

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

Mark

So by having no flaps covering the holes will have no effect is that what your saying .

I have been told from previous owner who has made this sump but won't digress on here as I'm not out to finger point, just learning all the time.

So long as it willdo the job I need it to do then that's fine .

Appreciate what you have said and taken on board.

Lateral Performance

iTrader: (20)

The original design kept oil in the middle for the pick up. Take away the frame in the sump, and the flaps, and then have all the return slots return the oil "outside" of the middle sections, with small holes restricting the oil getting back to the middle ?

I don't doubt the previous owner has done several thousand trouble free miles using it, but it's not something I would use on a track car.

Hope it works for you.


Mark.

killerbmotorsport

Lee, our baffle is $79USD (~49GBP). The 3-piece performance oiling combo (SUMP, PICKUP & BAFFLE) is $685USD (~417GBP). You can see all the details and information RIGHT HERE and the website also gives shipping costs too.

As for your current situation, I would take Mark's advice and put it in good use before using that sump. While it may have worked on the previous owners car, a little care and prevention go a long way when it comes to the oiling system.

At some level of performance it makes sense to bite the bullet and use a dry sump. Typically we see that need on very higly modified dedicated fully caged track only race cars. Usage also plays a roll for determining wet/dry as well; dirt, endurance, road coarse, oval, drag, etc? Most track enthusiasts, and weekend racers will do just fine with a wet sump.

leecalcars

iTrader: (37)

It's going in anyhow taken on board all said but as I was origanally writing this thread was in the process of already buying it so as it's in my possesion il be fitting it but if and when my current engine does give up the ghost and I do have a rebuild then I've learnt alot on this thread so will go down the respective route as and when .

Even though I have gone down a very expensive route with my car full cage , interior spray full strip out suspension ,brakes etc, etc I'm only tracking the car at club level but who knows the outcome and my skill as a driver you may see me in TA series .

I thank you all for your support on each and every topic I discuss .

Thanks again
lee