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What's your goal for power? Seems like a bit of a false economy to pay good money for a TD 04 hybrid...when you could get one of the VF range to make better power, and with arguably very little extra lag....
What's your goal for power? Seems like a bit of a false economy to pay good money for a TD 04 hybrid...when you could get one of the VF range to make better power, and with arguably very little extra lag....
With the vf35 on mine i wasn`t hitting full boost till just under 4000 rpm the vf35 is great with avcs heads but on wrx its laggy were the tdo4 hybrid does everything the vf35 does but hits full boost at 2800 revs
Thanks for the info guys. How are you finding the hybrids?
Ste333; just looking at options. I am new to Subaru so reading and learning. I agree VF35 seems like much better hp/£, however I quite fancy 300 ish and stock spool.
With the vf35 on mine i wasn`t hitting full boost till just under 4000 rpm the vf35 is great with avcs heads but on wrx its laggy were the tdo4 hybrid does everything the vf35 does but hits full boost at 2800 revs
Fair enough mate. I didn't think about the implications of AVCS/non-AVCS to be fair. Depends how much the OP has to spend!
Originally Posted by andy10v
Thanks for the info guys. How are you finding the hybrids?
Ste333; just looking at options. I am new to Subaru so reading and learning. I agree VF35 seems like much better hp/£, however I quite fancy 300 ish and stock spool.
Can't argue with your logic mate. a TD04 hybrid will be much more responsive...but just seems like a lot of money to spend for an extra 20 odd horsepower. A standard TD04 can make 270-280 (map and mods dependant) on a WRX. Worth a thought definitely. If you can source a good hybrid second hand for a sensible price, go for it!
A basic Td04 Hybrid just replaces the 13T compressor wheel with a 19t wheel. Then you need to modify the cover to fit or buy a replacement cover. You could choose a billet wheel and not all wheel designs will be the same - or equal in performance! You can also change the turbine wheel - 12 blade, 6+6, 11 blade etc. Whilst you are taking the turbo apart, you may as well replace all the seals with a rebuild kit. What about a new actuator whilst your at it? So you could pay less than £100 for just a 19t wheel which you fit yourself and then an engineering shop to modify the housing. Or you could spend £600+ if you wanted someone else to build you a brand new turbo with all the bells and whistles.
So far TD04 hybrids;
CR Turbos £525
Turbo Dynamics £395
Engine tuner £495 (billet compressor wheel and machined compressor housing)
Engine tuner £595 (billet compressor wheel, machined compressor housing, bigger turbine wheel and modified turbine housing, 320bhp ish)
Also various billet wheels and housings on ebay, and Kinugawa hybrids etc
Originally Posted by Ste333
Can't argue with your logic mate. a TD04 hybrid will be much more responsive...but just seems like a lot of money to spend for an extra 20 odd horsepower. A standard TD04 can make 270-280 (map and mods dependant) on a WRX. Worth a thought definitely. If you can source a good hybrid second hand for a sensible price, go for it!
That is the bit I am struggling with, VF35 will be cheaper, more power and all other mods would be the same (up pipe, down pipe, exhaust, intercooler/undertray, injectors, fuel pump and remap), so obviously I want to just fit the bigger turbo. However a small turbo can be so tractable for general driving, bigger turbo is great for hooning/track/strip.
My last turbo car went from a daily to stripped, 1/2 cage, forged rods etc etc. I dont want to go down that route this time, just want to focus on making it a fast road car that can do a couple of track days for a bit of fun.
Decisions, decisions.
How does a VF 35 drive with a WRX gearbox? Do the ratios work well?
All vf35 turbos second hand will be quite high mileage by now so would recommend a refresh on one anyway. As for my hybrid it spools same a standard td04 but keeps pulling to the red line y mapper said it pulled just as hard as the 35 but with less lag I put a 35 on mine first then took it off a couple of months later because I hated the way it drove round town no power under 4000 revs then a big dollop of power till red line the hybrid is a lot more progresI've from low down I am fully decated with a harvey up pipe what does make a big difference to low down pull
All vf35 turbos second hand will be quite high mileage by now so would recommend a refresh on one anyway. As for my hybrid it spools same a standard td04 but keeps pulling to the red line y mapper said it pulled just as hard as the 35 but with less lag I put a 35 on mine first then took it off a couple of months later because I hated the way it drove round town no power under 4000 revs then a big dollop of power till red line the hybrid is a lot more progresI've from low down I am fully decated with a harvey up pipe what does make a big difference to low down pull
Sounds like a modified TD04 would suit me better than a VF35 just now, thanks.
Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it.
Central Turbos £470, billet compressor wheel, replacement or machined compressor cover, hot side left standard.
So far TD04 hybrids;
CR Turbos £525
Turbo Dynamics £395
Engine tuner £495 (billet compressor wheel and machined compressor housing)
Engine tuner £595 (billet compressor wheel, machined compressor housing, bigger turbine wheel and modified turbine housing, 320bhp ish)
Also various billet wheels and housings on ebay, and Kinugawa hybrids etc
That is the bit I am struggling with, VF35 will be cheaper, more power and all other mods would be the same (up pipe, down pipe, exhaust, intercooler/undertray, injectors, fuel pump and remap), so obviously I want to just fit the bigger turbo. However a small turbo can be so tractable for general driving, bigger turbo is great for hooning/track/strip.
My last turbo car went from a daily to stripped, 1/2 cage, forged rods etc etc. I dont want to go down that route this time, just want to focus on making it a fast road car that can do a couple of track days for a bit of fun.
Decisions, decisions.
How does a VF 35 drive with a WRX gearbox? Do the ratios work well?
The Vf35 has a bigger exhaust housing/turbine, so the boost threshold will always be higher than the smaller Td04 and therefore spool will be slower (especially low down in the rev range). However, that can be mitigated/reduced by fitting ported exhaust headers with a wrap/ceramic coating and also the uppipe. And of course how it is mapped. The Vf35 will always have the advantage above 5k but that may be of less interest on a daily driver.
If you look at this thread https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...d-install.html for the £600 ET turbo, the dyno map looks like what you would expect from a Vf35. It doesn’t appear to have an greater spool or low-down power that you would expect (hope for) from a Td04-19t over a Vf35. It may of course drive differently to how the dyno map shows. I’m pretty sure that you could have a second hand Vf35 rebuilt for £600 including purchase price. So no difference in price for perceivably no difference in performance.
Whereas you can buy Td04s for as little as £50, 19t wheel and cover £150, swap them yourself and £50 to have it balanced and you then have an appreciable saving. Similar to the price of a used Vf35. So it’s important to know exactly what Td04-Hybrid you are paying for – if it’s just a wheel and cover then £400 sounds very expensive, especially if you are providing the donor turbo. Whereas if it’s a complete strip down and rebuild, including new exhaust wheel, balancing and actuator, the £500 is a good value. Potentially no 2 TD04-Hybrids will be the same, depending upon who built them. Whereas a Vf35 is a Vf35, is a Vf35, is a Vf35….the difference just being in how worn it is and whether the wastegate has been smoothed.
I’ve seen some Hybrids dyno with as much as 300lbsft at 3k and that’s really what I’d want from one; spool off and running & making good power by 3k. I’d be happy with 300/300 between 3-5.5k – perfect for a daily driver WRX with the long 3rd gear. If you get greedy and try and squeeze too much power from them, you risk moving the power band up and ultimately, you may as well fit a Vf35/Td05-16 which will make the same power, at the same revs with less boost/stress.
I have been procrastinating over this very issue for the last 2 years
very interesting topic.
im in the same boat as we speak and been thinking about a hybrid route.
mines a uk 2002 wrx.
i have the oem td04 and a VF35 sat on the bench,
harvey smith 1.75in (44mm) up pipe, full 2.5in system with the prodrive sports cat. prodrive I/C pipe/sti pinks /walbro / grade 7 plugs, wrapped headers & prodrive 3port / cosworth panel filter.
Im ready for this lot to be mapped but now starting to think to sell the VF off and have the Td04 done. as i would like a fast road car,and originally thought 300/300ft. I kinda guessed id be around 320hp/320ft with the VF35.
so im unsure stick with the current set up and have 20hp more and little extra lag but less boost, or less lag, little less hp and more boost forced into the engine????
In my experience, VF35 can get up to 350bhp with correct supporting mods and more torque.
TD04 even hybrid will struggle to get 300bhp. Yes it will be lovely to spool but it's a fair bit smaller so runs out of puff where the VF35 keeps pulling.
On the whole, once you've stretched your budget and pushed every last bit to get to 300bhp you will eventually want more. The difference of a VF turbo compared to the TD04 feels quite a lot in the real world and you will eventually want more that the TD04 can offer.
A properly mapped VF turbo with correct supporting mods can be mapped to come on boost by 3k rpm, so it won't feel laggy at all in the real world.
If it were me and my money I'd go VF turbo. I did on my hawkeye and it was brilliant. Went from TD04 to VF48 and it was mental. Totally different car and loads of power in all gears and revs. Loved every minute of that car once I'd changed the turbo out.
That's my opinion anyhow! Sorry to throw another option in there!
Last edited by BrownPantsRacing; 29 October 2018 at 06:22 PM.
3k I hit full boost on the td04 on the stock 215hp map .
My car was totally stock and now fitted all the bits to take it 300+ so I only have stock car for reference
3k I hit full boost on the td04 on the stock 215hp map .
My car was totally stock and now fitted all the bits to take it 300+ so I only have stock car for reference
The Vf35 has a bigger exhaust housing/turbine, so the boost threshold will always be higher than the smaller Td04 and therefore spool will be slower (especially low down in the rev range). However, that can be mitigated/reduced by fitting ported exhaust headers with a wrap/ceramic coating and also the uppipe. And of course how it is mapped. The Vf35 will always have the advantage above 5k but that may be of less interest on a daily driver.
If you look at this thread https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...d-install.html for the £600 ET turbo, the dyno map looks like what you would expect from a Vf35. It doesn’t appear to have an greater spool or low-down power that you would expect (hope for) from a Td04-19t over a Vf35. It may of course drive differently to how the dyno map shows. I’m pretty sure that you could have a second hand Vf35 rebuilt for £600 including purchase price. So no difference in price for perceivably no difference in performance.
Whereas you can buy Td04s for as little as £50, 19t wheel and cover £150, swap them yourself and £50 to have it balanced and you then have an appreciable saving. Similar to the price of a used Vf35. So it’s important to know exactly what Td04-Hybrid you are paying for – if it’s just a wheel and cover then £400 sounds very expensive, especially if you are providing the donor turbo. Whereas if it’s a complete strip down and rebuild, including new exhaust wheel, balancing and actuator, the £500 is a good value. Potentially no 2 TD04-Hybrids will be the same, depending upon who built them. Whereas a Vf35 is a Vf35, is a Vf35, is a Vf35….the difference just being in how worn it is and whether the wastegate has been smoothed.
I’ve seen some Hybrids dyno with as much as 300lbsft at 3k and that’s really what I’d want from one; spool off and running & making good power by 3k. I’d be happy with 300/300 between 3-5.5k – perfect for a daily driver WRX with the long 3rd gear. If you get greedy and try and squeeze too much power from them, you risk moving the power band up and ultimately, you may as well fit a Vf35/Td05-16 which will make the same power, at the same revs with less boost/stress.
I have been procrastinating over this very issue for the last 2 years
A very good explanation there, well done that man. I don't know what to do myself now lol. Next year I might consider a turbo change for my 2.5 Hawk WRX...I was going to go for a VF43/48...but I'm very conscious of moving the power band too much for my daily driving (round town mostly).
I'm interested to see what the OP does and want to see his feedback after
A very good explanation there, well done that man. I don't know what to do myself now lol. Next year I might consider a turbo change for my 2.5 Hawk WRX...I was going to go for a VF43/48...but I'm very conscious of moving the power band too much for my daily driving (round town mostly).
I'm interested to see what the OP does and want to see his feedback after
your 2.5 engine should be less laggy and help the turbo get going due to the low down torque a td04 hybrid probably wouldn't be the best choice for your engine
your 2.5 engine should be less laggy and help the turbo get going due to the low down torque a td04 hybrid probably wouldn't be the best choice for your engine
I disagree. I had a VF48 mapped on my hawk WRX and it was immense. Full boost by 3k rpm and not at all laggy. It was a monster and a treat to drive every day. There was not much it couldn't deal with in a drag race. Certainly not laggy.
As said above, if you're in doubt then maybe go for a drive in a newage car with a bigger VF turbo on that's been mapped by a reputable mapper with sensible supporting mods.
You will be really surprised and won't want your TD04 after that I can tell you.
My VF48 graphs on hawkeye. Made 334bhp & 381lb/ft torque with VF48, STI TMIC & scoop under tray, fuel pump, 3 port, panel filter, sports cat downpipe, 2.5" exhaust.
I appreciate for the OP with an older car without dual AVCS it will perform differently. Also the VF48 would be the wrong turbo for a 2.0L car really. But on a 2.5 Hawk with Dual AVCS you can see how nice that graph looks.
26 October 2018, 12:54 PM
