I think the problem with lateral G and the Jap cars is mainly due to one thing....under steer!.
I presume in this test what they are refering to is how much lateral G the car can produce around a constant radius before the car needs frequent steering adjustment to hold its line. Since the EVO & Scoob are 4 wheel drive understeer will set in earlier than with the rear wheel drive contigent. The Skylines relatively poor showing in this field is probably due to the torque transfer/Rear wheel steer system and the mix of mild understeer followed by push out oversteer to compensate. Still for a lardy ar5ed car the Skylines performance in the slalom was a real eye opener.. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif
Who needs 500BHP to compete when your car gets from 0-100 and back again in standard form faster than the EVO or Scoob http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif and to top it it all the figures prove that mass in a car doesn't ruin the cars ability to change direction quickly.
Steve

I know this will be old hat to many - however as a community we do see our cars as indomitable on the road with the only competition being Evos, and possibly the odd 500 bhp cossie or Skyline - certainly not that German rubbish, etc, etc.

Also much of this is based not on outright speed, but grip and handling.

Some interesting facts in EVO this month then...(in order Evo VII, STi VII, new M3, RS4, Skyline, 911, Tuscan)


0-100-0

17.6
17.6
16.6
16.8
16.8
16.5
14.0 (!!!!!!)

Slalom

7.25
7.39
7.35
7.40
6.98
7.37
6.86 (!!!!!!!!!!!)

Lateral G

0.76
0.72 (!!!!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif)
0.84
0.87
0.75
0.85
0.88


So the Tuscan wins, by MILES!!!!!!!!

So much for four wheel drive, mega handling. Can't beat light weight and monster torque and brake!

R

Interesting comparison.
It does'nt address the biggest factor in car perfomance though, the driver.

The reason why the Evo,Impreza and skyline are so good is that a muppet driver(me) can get them to perform and handle as well as a tricker, but faster and better handling car driven by a better driver.

I remember John Felstead telling the story of how he can keep up with a 22b across country in his sport. Why? Because he knows how to handle and drive the car, and that makes up for the substancial performance deficit.

It's all about accessablity, not about outright punch and grip. Of course there's a limit a fiat 126 driven by Richard Burns will have no chance against a scoob, driven by you or I.

The EPR factors in the performance potential of the car, not how skilled the driver needs to be get at it. There should be another percentage in it, which is the percentage of the maximum ability that can be gained by the average driver.

and how much is a TVR Tuscan???

Phil

Or a TVR press "fettled" car eh? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Don't reckon Dings car will be much of the Tuscans 0-100-0.

Is miles off the TVRs 0-60 (5.6 v 4.4) but has caught it by 100.

These figures were in the wet, and I believe Dingys car was wheelspinning all the way to a 100.

So no, our cars arn't that fast http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

Agree about driver ability - but the M3 had traction control 'turned on' and by all accounts everyone who has driven it would regard it as foolproof.

Certainly the Tuscan would bite in the wrong hands, but some of these other cars have very accessible handling.

The biggest surprise to me was lack of lateral grip - I always saw this as the key lead of the Scoobs et al. Even the M3 has much more lateral grip (my 330Ci has a lot and again is very easy to drive near, if not over, the limit).

It may be more that 6-7 years ago our cars were out there and the world has reacted and caught up! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

R

Yes our cars are quick( says the man who sold his scooby for an evo for aa 306 Rallye for an Integra...). They shine on wet, nasty B roads, and are in my opinion among the fastest cars along such routes.

There are many cars with on paper figures that are more impressive, but always remember that it usually pisses it down in this country!

Fair enough, if you live in the states and the sun always shines, and all roads are long straights, there are many cars that will outdrag a scooby, but that really isn't my kind of driving.

Plus, I may be wrong, but I think the first gen Imprezas were capable of higher lateral grip etc. I may be wrong of course.

Aggree with the TVR bit - an owners car would not match those figures. Shame and rather backhanded.

Interesting comments.

My challenge (and I say this as an STi owner!) is that these are not 'on paper' figures but reflect handling, grip and acceleration.

If a new M3, which is both FUN and FOOLPROOF with traction control, and is regarded as superb wet and dry, can produce higher lateral grip than an STI with Bridgestones then I would regard that as staggering performance. I used to believe that Skylines had the highest lateral grip possible, but these figures don't seem to hold that up.

Also, the TVR may be souped up as it is Harry Metcalfes car, but the slalom performace is still incredible for such an apparently primative motor!!

R

Remember the following:

1. TVR - Pure sportscar for 2 people. Ride/Handling optimised for that purpose. If it does more than 10mpg, it's a bonus. Breaks down a lot. Cost New: £45K+

2. Impreza Turbo/WRX - Saloon for 4/5 people. Ride/Handling optimised for driving on the road in comparative comfort, if a BIT quickly. Treat it right and you'll get 25mpg. Hardly ever has anything go wrong with it. Cost New: £22K+

"The defence rests, m'lud" http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/rolleyes.gif

Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE a TVR, Griffith, Tuscan, S V8, even a 3000M etc...

BUT only as a PLAY car. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

Rannoch
Skyline does have amazing amount of grip and produce very high lateral G it's just that constant radius' aint it's bag. I have pulled over .85 g on a roundabout locally which is comfotably more than the Evo rating, but I DID need to correct the steering quite a bit which would have given me the red card in the Evo ratings.
Steve

God knows how many G's Birdy would have been pulling round the loop at Donno as I was too busy looking at the grass armco and gravel to worry about the display. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif
Steve

Before I start I'm not mental and I'm not trying to start a fight but I've just come back from NM5 in my Fiesta SI, 1600, 16v 100bhp. Now obviously the scoob is quicker off the mark and in straight lines but I was mixing with a few folk in the twisty bits, wet and dry, I just wish I had the power to come out of the bends with!

Bob

Bob
I hope you've left your crash helmet and fire proof suit on http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif
Steve

oooer! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

i cant speak for the tuscan, but didnt the tvr griffith come in 150th place in the JD power survey!!!!!!
Although the impreza has won the survey twice it has slipped a little, but nowhere near the level of a tvr,anyway, why not compare it with an sti5 or 6, a much better car http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

*flame suit on* http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

One thing with magazine test is they are not always prepared to consistent standards IMHO.

Evo are pretty guilty of this - they used their own fleet Impreza WRX for the "evo rating" and it came out crap. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

But wait, whats this? The very next fleet article spotted that the wheel alignment was *way* out (2 knackered front tyres in not very many miles). Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this will have a huge effect on handling feel and quality. But are they going to re-test it? Are they buggery. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/mad.gif Also, do they make sure cars are on good tyres etc? No, they just use what they arrived on. And are the drivers they use top quality test drivers? No, just a random selection of journos, and a different one for each test too.

Conclusion - take test results with a pinch of salt and don't get excited over fractions of a second. Test drive the cars you like the sound of, and decide by your own experience.

Steve

I'm waiting on the 355 v Scoob in the scoobynews CD, that should be interesting to say the least.

Andy

About the lateral grip thing. Isn't the tyre width a big issue here. I'm sure the other cars mentioned (M3, RS4, Skyline, 911, Tuscan) all have much wider tyres.
Makes the Scoob more fun cos it slides around a bit more...

[This message has been edited by scoobysnacks (edited 29 April 2001).]

I've only had my MY00 2 weeks and am a reasonable driver (Advanced level), and last week I was followed by an enthuthiastic driver in a Tuscan through some country B roads. I wasn't sure if he was trying 100% but I managed to leave him behind.

I think in the real world the rally derived cars (Impreza, Evo, etc) cannot really be beaten.

I agree that the TVR appears faster on paper and in all the road tests carried out, but also agree that TVR are prone to handing out "specials" for this purpose.

My vet had a Tuscan Speed 6 and it was 'kin quick in a straight line, but he could not keep up with my RB5WR round the twisty bits...and as for any road surface remotely near damp http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/eek.gif

He also owns a WRX 5 door import which he uses for his day to day work, the blacked out rear windows are ideal for stopping prying eyes viewing his vets equipment. This car has also been his main day to day fun transport when the Tuscan was at the dealers, on average once a month in the 12 months he has owned it http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/eek.gif The Tuscan has now been sold back to a dealer at a reasonable price as Stuart has now ordered a Tamora for delivery later this year, yes he is mad and his consultant fees are exhorbitant...but he does own a Scoob http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

To give my opinion of the Tuscan properly I would like to have the opportunity to drive one for a week or so. But, at the moment they cost at least twice what a new Scooby costs, break down far too often for any manufacturer/owner to tolerate other than TVR and their fans and only offer a 12 month warranty against the 36 months form Subaru.

Quick they are, but only to and from dealers it would appear http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

Yex

To be honest I just find it amazing that the Scooby is considered a rival in this company. TVR - specialist sportscar, Skyline - v.expensive specialist machine, 911, RS4 etc etc.

The beauty of the Scooby is that it gets even close to these guys in a practical and relatively cheap package. Seems to me the problem is that the Scooby is so well thought of it gets compared to more and more exotic equipment.
Finally - on the road 0.2 or 0.3 of a second is nothing. Conditions, tyres, driver etc have much more effect.

TRIGGAR,

to me you have hit the nail on the head - I agree with what you say - but just think of all the posts where Scooby drivers posts telling us how much faster their car is compared to ....... where ...... is any Supercar costing more than £40k http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

I'm glad to see that everyone else is offering such a staunch defence http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

R

Have to agree with the Driver making the difference with the scoob I can get from 0-60 quickly with a TVR I suspect I would manage 0-arse end through the hedge faster but I cant afford to do that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by markcp:
<B>I wasn't sure if he was trying 100% but I managed to leave him behind.

[/quote]

No mate - he wasn't trying. He's got nothing to prove otherwise you'd have been left standing. The Tuscan is in a different league to an Impreza - price difference or whatever. Its a missile with 4 wheels. Had a test drive in one. Closest thing to a motorbike ive ever sat in. Wicked motor!!!

And they dont break down - they just leak a lot if it rains!! But would you drive one in the rain?!!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

As a both previous TVR(Cerb)and STI6 type R owner..a few thoughts.
I loved the scoob and very much regret selling it..bought new from Warrender I only owned it for 7 months before selling it for something faster(!)..its brakes struggled a tad bringing it down quickly from 150 as I discovered one day while chasing in vain a Ferrari 456..(old granny smith pulls out in front of the 456 in her Micra..the F stops big time..Im standing on my brakes/jumping up and down with both feet/ pulling up a hairs breadth from the lush behind of the F..few!)
So wanted something to chase the F proper in and bought the Cerb..to cut it short the pace of the car was frightening 0-100 = 8.9secs?/every trip out was a sweaty palm experience/as I mentioned once before on this board I was doing 160mph on the A41 to Aylesbury and then floored it and the acceleration was stunning..I believe the car could knock on the door of the big 200. The brakes (AP) were well up to the job as well.
The down side to TVR ownership (again in brief)the car didn't get me home from the dealership, it broke down once a week, its easy to drive a Scoob fast/the Scoob is such a good car it complements your driving skills whatever they may be, the Cerb' does not! it takes a much better driver than I'll ever be to handle a TVR on the max. So no Scoobs are not the fastest by a long chalk but its the best all round car I've ever driven and that includes my atrocious Z3M that I'm presently lumbered with.
Never did find that Ferrari though!

LMAO http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

TVRs don't break down.

That's funny http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

In the old traffic lights grand prix I left a Cerbera behind - I was amazed knowing the on paper performance of these things - until I noticed his rear tyres lighting up and the car going nowhere. Driving ability makes all the difference.

...or is it that Scoobs flatter to decieve http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

R http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

Just a little factoid: in SportAuto, the Impreza reached 1.0 G (Hockenheim) in their supertest.
Horst von Saurma commented that the car was indeed (as scoobysnacks said) limited by tyre width, otherwise it would have reached higher G's.