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A colleague of mine has come in today and told me about an incident he had with a bike rider at the weekend.
He drives a black Civic Type-R and pulled onto the M3 at J4 to travel the short distance to J4a. The bike pulled on behind him and went past. As they approached the exit for J4a, me mate passed the bike at a normal, safe speed and turned off onto the slip road. If anyone knows this exit, you will know it is a lond sweeping left hander that doesnt straighten up before you get to a roundabout. Me mate basically floored it round the bend and got round quite quickly, whilst the motorbike was in the left hand lane and he was on the right. The bike had pulled out behind him and followed him at a rate of knots up to the roundabout. Me mate managed to stop at the roundabout with the help of his ABS, but the bike seemed to have a bit of trouble slowing as it was leaning and he was going fast. As me mate pulled away off the roundabout onto the straight road, the bike came along side him VERY close, waved his fist a bit and kicked the car door !!! Me mate braked hard so he could not do it again. My question is, what has me mate done wrong ?? He didnt cut the bike up, he didnt cause the bike to have to make any evasive manouvers, any problems the bike got into were because he chased me mate at speed. I can only think it is because he had trouble stopping whilst cornering. I would say that some performance bike riders fail to realise that although their bikes are far quicker than most cars, that a car with good brakes will always have far greater braking capabilities than a bike due to the size of the brakes and the amount of rubber on the road to cause the friction. I hope i dont come across this rider. Dave |
I think there's more to this than first appears.................
Either the Biker is a complete to**er or your friend has not recollected all the encouter quite correctly.... Whatever happens theres no need to kick a door...... J |
Sounds to me like the bike was caught out a little by having to brake whilst still going round a bend. In basic terms, on a bike the more you're leaned over the less you can brake. This problem may then have been exaggerated by your mate braking for the roundabout, or maybe that's the way the guy on the bike saw it (hence the dented door panel). If that was indeed what happened I suspect that the rider simply bit off more than he could chew, and chose to vent his anger at your mate rather than looking at why he ended up out of his depth in the first place. We all make mistakes but it's easier to blame someone else rather than admit you were the culprit!
As I said though this is assuming that there's no more to it, than what your mate is saying. As a biker and a scooby driver, I can understand both points of view, but in 40,000 miles of bike riding I've only ever had to kick one car, who was (whilst looking me in the eye and mouthing obscenities) trying to ram me into a roundabout. Say what you like but if I hadn't done it I'd have been nursing injuries, a knackered bike or worse. :rolleyes: All this for the heinous crime of trying to negotiate a roundabout near the M25. Whip ;) |
A recent test showed, surprisingly, that although cars have double the number of wheels and lots more braking area, they don't stop quicker than bikes. There's not a lot in it, but a good rider on a good bike will stop c.10-15% faster than a decent ABS-ed car.
Of course, loads of bike riders are crap at braking and faced with a serious potential accident either lock the front brake and slide down the road, or fail to brake hard enough. No flames please, I'm a rider myself, and I've done both of the above in panic situations. Bros No need to kick a car door - I find tapping on the driver's door window at 40mph more effective! |
Probably just your typical biker who thinks he owns the road.Dam annoying he kicked your m8`s door mind!
Rich :( |
'Probably just your typical biker who thinks he owns the road.'
Nice attitude, says a lot about you. biker + scoob driver. |
Agree with peter.
Of course its not the car drivers that cause 66 - 70% of all bike accidents per year is it? Biker / Bike Racer / Scooby owner |
There are dickhead bikers just like there are dickhead drivers.
But not all bikers are dickheads, just like not all drivers are dickheads. |
Probably just your typical biker who thinks he owns the road. Where do these stereotypical views come from, that's what I'd like to know. From personal experience? Yes there are probably just as many to55ers on bikes as there are in cars as a percentage, the difference is a to55er on a bike is much more noticeable. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe bikers ride in an aggressive manner, precisely because there are so many people with the same attitude as yourself, ready to wipe them out without a moments concern? A good offence is the best defence. Whip ;) Biker AND Scooby pilot |
This is gonna turn into yet another bikes v cars thread - like we need another one.
As lots of people have already said, there are as many tw@ts on bikes as there are in cars. Just accept it. Andrew biker & driver |
As they approached the exit for J4a, me mate passed the bike at a normal, safe speed and turned off onto the slip road. Kicking doors is a bit extreme, I find a swift downward smack on the top of the door mirror works better ;) Although I admit it, I did kick a Renault Clio door in once, but the f0cker had just run over my foot (thank you steel toe cap Doc Martens) |
One thing i can say as a biker and car driver, is that for me and for most bikers (educated guess)for them to actually kick a door then something more happened whether your friend noticed / forgot too mention, but for a biker to do that he/she is risking serious injury and must be pretty dammed pi***ed to do that.
The guy could have been just a bit of a weirdo or had his line for grinding his knees round the r'about (no excuse for door banging though !), in which case your mate was just unlucky, but i honestly cant imagine from your description was the bikers problem was... Keep it kool, Phill Keep it kool and watch out for nut |
Hmm, I think they were both a bit nuts going fast around that corner as you really can't see around it very well and the traffic is often quite backed up. Good fun corner late at night though! Perhaps it was the same biker I saw weaving haphazardly between lanes 2 and 3 this morning... accident waiting to happen.
[Edited by jlanng - 5/14/2002 1:09:48 PM] |
slightly off topic but has anyone seen that new bike safety advert which shows a car driver negotiating a right turn across traffic and hits a biker attempting to overtake him.
the catch line is " now you see him ,now you dont, now you see him now, you see him ,now you see him(as the camera zooms into the biker spread on the road). my point being that as a driver having a biker hovering in youre blind spot and attempting to over take you on a busy high street (as the film shows) tells more about the stupidity of the biker than the driver. Before anyone jumps down my neck i was poleaxed by an idiot turning out of a junction in the the exact style of the old "think once think twice think bike" campaign about 15 years ago i flew in a not to graceful arc right over his bonnet tearing my knee ligaments in the process. I always used to ride with lights on main beam and this ocurred in broad daylight on the junction of a road called "dead mans lane" !!!!!! I now take great care when bikers are about and move out of the way when possible but part of this care is because there are also plenty of bikers with no regard for other road users and dont allow for the slower reactions of some people on the road. it always terifies me when i see a biker weaving in and out of three lane motorways at 80 plus miles an hour people can and do change lanes with out warning. be careful out there [Edited by mattstant - 5/14/2002 11:20:35 PM] |
I'm with Mattstant re. the safety advert. Far as I'm concerned it's the biker's fault. But the sentiment of the advert is to be welcomed.
I also favour the whacking the wing mirror trick, gotta love carbon fibre gloves! DP. Bike & Scoob |
err, i`ve just sold me Ducati 996s, before that i had a Blade, before that a GSXR 750, GXR600, GPZ550...... had bikes from age 15 to errmmm.. 30 :o
Like i say, just your typical biker who thinks he owns the road.They all think they are somat else as they are on a bike.I`m in the process of getting mesen another bike a.t.m. so i`m hardly anti biker, just a realist. Rich. |
RichiW
There are plenty of people on here who think they're sommat else because they're in a scoob m8. Yes there are some idiots out there, who by virtue of their riding 'style' :D are bound to get noticed much more than some of the more responsible riders. The idiots are easily remembered, whereas the rest are easily forgotten. I find it hard to believe you can have such a low opinion of your fellow riders. What are your reasons for this if you don't mind me asking? Out of all my riding mates (at least 50 or 60 in various parts of the country) there are maybe 4 or 5 that ride above my 'comfortable' pace and I avoid riding with them. I wouldn't say any of them are accidents waiting to happen tho. I think a lot of this can vary from region to region - when I've rode around London the standard of riding was particularly crap. Re the advert, yes it's the guy on the scooters fault, the fact is though that that maneouvre is commonplace in the city (like it or not). I suppose a better example would be a scooter filtering between two lanes and a car changing lanes without indicating or suchlike. But that aside, it's nice to see some biker awareness being attempted by the govt rather than the 'speed kills' message all the time. Whip ;) [Edited by whip - 5/15/2002 1:40:43 PM] |
Goes against the grain to criticise bikers but ...
Someone I know well is a lovely fellow and has been riding for many years. Been riding 20 years, never even had a car licence. I have no doubts over his competence (hell, I lent him my bike at a track day last year) BUT ...... I came across him by chance the other week and followed him on A roads & through a largish town. I was astonished by the risks taken, and would have been seriously unimpressed had I been one of the car drivers he squeezed. Bros [Edited by bros2 - 5/15/2002 4:27:14 PM] |
Re: whacking the wing mirror of cars that have cut you up etc.
Fair enough, it vents anger and will cause the car driver to think about what he/she's done to annoy the biker that much. SO what should I do to a bike when I get cut up (by one of the few to$$ers who ride bikes, not the majority of good riders) in my car? Can't whack his handlebars without killing him. Cant nudge his rear wheel without killing him. Maybe I should get a passenger to whack his skid-lid with a pole? Or how about shooting an air pistol at the lights of his bike? At the end of the day, I KNOW car drivers could do more to improve road safety for bikers. I don't ride (yet) but i've been driving for a fair while and have seen the (car driving) pillocks that cause accidents for bikes. They cause accidents for cars too. I cannot see the reason for criminal damage to their motor to "teach them a lesson" though. How would you riders justify that? Especially if it happened to your scooby. Derek |
I take a rather extreme view when it comes to a driver doing something stupid that could cause me an accident (either deliberately or through stupidity/lack of concentration). Such events are a direct threat to my life, therefore I consider them a personal attack.
Criminal Damage? Depends how hard you hit it, but I tend to just try to wake the driver up, as 80% of UK drivers may as well be asleep at the wheel for the amount of concentration they have on the job in hand. I had a guy on Sunday deliberately pull out as I went to overtake him. If I wasn't concentrating on getting past him safely, I'd have ripped his mirror off and stuck it where only surgeons would be able to adjust it, as it was, I didn't have this luxury as I was on the wrong side of the road with my clear view diminishing. If you bump another car while driving it usually ends up in a bit of cosmetic damage and an insurance claim. Do that to a biker and he's likely to be in hospital for while if he's lucky. The father of one of my friends is now paralysed from the neck down after a car pulled out of a junction and t-boned him. This kind of accident is not as rare as you think, so forgive us 2 wheelers that feel a little aggressive towards you 4 wheelers. |
We've only got one side of the story here so why bother trying to explain it.
But your mate seems to have spent a lot of time watching the biker for someone who was driving safley. Mike |
NotoriousREV,
I know quite a few riders, and a few of those have had accidents caused by cars do them enough damage to be hospitalised for a while. I also know how dangerous it can feel when on a moving bike and a car does something unexpected (rode pillion more than a few times). This is why I don't play with bikes even though I now drive a super-duper jap rally turbo (the mitsi one :D). My 1.3 tons vs their 0.3 tons means that if something happens, they are the ones that are screwed, not me. What I was commenting on was the impression that "if he cuts me up I'm allowed to smash his car up". Fair enough, it could easily have been a life threatening situation for the rider. The car driver may be an 80 year-old asleep at the wheel (or as good as). Doing that may well cause him to crash his vehicle and kill himself, and do you feel this is justified because the old duffer shouldn't be behind the wheel in the first place? The other point of view: I am pootling along in my Evo. A biker wants to get past (fair enough), and as I'm a crap driver his pace could be a little better than mine and I'm slowing him up. So he takes a risk overtaking me on a straight, and because I don't see him start the attempt (I'm concentrating on the road in front just after the corner) I'm booting it too. He gets alongside, then an oncoming car appears just round the next bend. I slow down to let the biker in front, at the same time he slows down to nip back in behind. Mass confusion, I keep slowing, he cranks it open and gets in front in time. He blames me for my crap driving, and braking when he assumed that as a muppet car driver I wouldn't think of letting him in. He gets annoyed, after all for him it was a life threatening situation, and proceeds to smash the wing mirror and boot the door a little further up the road to indicate his displeasure to me. I think he's a raving nutter, and is attacking my car for no good reason. After all, when I noticed he was trying to overtake I slowed to let him in in time. My initial appraisal was that he was performing a risky manouevre(sp?) so I tried to lessen the risk for him. And my car gets a grands worth of avoidable damage for it. Is that my fault for being in a car? Should I take it like a "good" lad, not report the incident, and pay for the damages out of my own pocket? I'm not saying I don't understand why you'd want to do that. I'm asking why you feel it would be justified. Say you in your scoob cut me in my evo up, to the point where I felt it was a life threatening situation for me. Would I be justified in trying to catch you up and ram your car a few times "to teach you a lesson"? How would you react to that? I would guess that you'd stop the car and proceed to beat seven shades out of me for ramming your car deliberately. Even though it was your driving that triggered my "revenge" attack. In conclusion: don't be too surprised if some thoughtless driver tries to run you off the road when you kick the crap out of a mirror/door because of their crap driving. Although you may see the damage as an object lesson in road etiquette, doesn't mean that they will... Derek [Edited by NumptyScrub - 5/15/2002 6:28:01 PM] |
Back on topic: I've seen enough crap drivers on the roads that are a danger to cars (let alone bikes) that hammering bike awareness in to drivers heads is a necessity. No 2 ways about it.
In the incident mentioned at the start, perhaps if the car driver wasn't driving so "progressively" he may have avoided any clash of positioning/intent with the motorbike, therefore avoiding the situation entirely? I'm a crap driver, so I have no problems slowing down and waiting in traffic queues if it means I stand less chance of killing other road users. Even if it gives BMW/Merc/Nova drivers the chance to cut me up 20 feet from the motorway exit from the middle/outside lane, because they just had to overtake 2 more cars before pulling in... Derek [Edited by NumptyScrub - 5/15/2002 7:02:17 PM] |
The other point of view: I am pootling along in my Evo. A biker wants to get past (fair enough), and as I'm a crap driver his pace could be a little better than mine and I'm slowing him up. So he takes a risk overtaking me on a straight, and because I don't see him start the attempt (I'm concentrating on the road in front just after the corner) I'm booting it too. He gets alongside, then an oncoming car appears just round the next bend. I slow down to let the biker in front, at the same time he slows down to nip back in behind. Mass confusion, I keep slowing, he cranks it open and gets in front in time. I've done a similar thing in a car myself, turning right into a filter lane when a BMW decided to overtake 4 cars in a row, I didn't see him. Whose fault was it? Partly his for failing to take into account there was a filter lane for turning right while making his overtaking manouvre, partly mine for failing to check for passing vehicles (I was only 17 and still learning even having aquired my licence). If every driver was alert and courteous, no one would ever get stressed behind the wheel. ;) |
Not so sure on that one.
Now if the car comes out of a corner, and the bike is behind him, surely it should be obvious to the biker that the car is going to accellerate (because the road has straighten), and as such, (esp. been behind something like a Scoob or Evo) he should therefore take note of the stance of the car and how hard its accellerating before starting to even think of overtaking himself.Like you say, in an ideal world......... Whip, i live in a village called Sherburn In Elmet, its near to Leeds, theres a cafe where everyone meets and basically its the biggest bike meeting place in Yorkshire. Now i`ve been visiting this cafe since age 13, on a Wed, Thurs and Sunday..... and Sat. if i aint going out! Now as you can imagine i`ve spent *alot* of time around bikers, the majority been race-rep (like myself) riders.So i personally feel that i know bikers(esp. race-rep riders) better than most, having spent half my life (literally) around and among them. Its from this that i have drawn the conclusion that the majority of them think that they own the road, and that they almost have a right to cut car drivers up because as already stated, car drivers cause the majority of accidents. I`m probably wrong, its the impression i get, and the impression gets stronger everytime i move across to let a biker past, and dont get a wave of thanks or naff all, as though they are the "high and mighty" and i`m not good enough as a car driver to be thanked.I personally wave every driver thats moved over for me, its only curtious. Mebbe its because me and my m8`s are from the "old school"....bombing around on 50`s, onto LC125`s and upto/past LC350`s i dunno, but we all agree the generation of bikers that now ride the roads are ignorant and basically cannot ride for toffee or to save their own lives, which more than often or not they put into other peoples hands though shear ignorance, lack of knowledge and no sense of road craft! Did i put enough thought into that?? :p ... and yes, i know cars drivers are as bad if not worse, but they`ve alwasy been like that! :D Rich. ;) |
RichiW
One of the problems with Direct Access is that people only start to ride when they're 24-25 and can afford it. They're not going to buy (as I did) a 15 year old Vespa 200 when they first get on the road, or trade up to a CG125 (ROO 30R, where are you now). No, they're big boys, and they'll buy themselves something quick. They'll buy Fast Bikes, they'll learn to wheelie and get their knee down on a roundabout (just how sad is roundabout surfing, btw?) and they'll buy identi-dayglo Dainese "cos they're the best" (er, no, they're just the best supported in terms of marketing spend). Oh yes, one other thing. These lads and lasses will almost all have an accident in their first year on the road. When I started I could kick the bike straight and ride on, having not hurt myself too much 'cos I was only going 40 mph. Triple the speed on a CBR600 and it's an entirely different game you're playing. (Puts on old cardigan and shuffles off to the allottment, muttering about 'the good old days') Bros |
I know a fair few bikers and always used to race a few on the way home from work. Most of them drive at dangerous speeds pull risky overtaking manouvers and think every car on the road should focus on letting them pass. I think maybe they don't all consider that coming up to a round about a car driver is more concerned with the traffic infront of him than the biker shooting past at seventy miles an hour.
they have managed to convince me to get a bike though. its all about the speed and risk for a biker. If they diddn't get killed and maimed regularly it would take the fun out of it for them . Secretly when you hit one you are doing him favour. |
Having just done the Direct Access and bought something fast I understand most of the comments on here, however:
1) If I try to kick/hit anything while moving, I am likely to fall off and that will hurt. 2) If someone pulls out/changes lane/doesn't see me, then I have to do something to avoid them. If I don't see them, I end up skating along the M4 on my arse, and that will hurt. 3) If I piss someone off and they decide to get me back, result (2) applies. 4) If I play silly buggers and do silly things, then result (2) applies again. 5) If I wait until its safer, I can usually get past them anyway. Actually being on a bike really makes you aware of how vulnerable you are. CBT should be compulsary for ALL drivers, IMHO! |
The weekends cominin.......... :)
The weathers gonna be good... :) Time to put the Scoob to sleep........ And put the bike where it should..... ;) J |
I agree with Kryten, riding a bike gives you alot more awareness. But as with fast cars, where everyone thinks they can 'drive', some (not all) people who get on fast bikes automatically think they are Carl Fogarty and have more rights than anyone else. The risk for me is too great on a bike (I like living and with all bones intact), that's why I hoon around in a scoob. The bike's alot of fun, very fast and easy to get around in traffic but I leave the grass cutting and excessive 3 figure speeds to the loons. This sounds like an encounter with a loon that didn't like being overtaken so near to a junction and didn't expect to hit the brakes on full lean.
I guess my point is that not all bikers are bad just like not all Scoob (and other) drivers are bad but unfortunately the few ruin it for the rest of us. Steve |
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