Nearly bought a cat d car dealer did not disclose.. Advise Please!
 

Was helping a young lady friend of mine find a car last friday, she doesn't have a massive budget £3.5k but was set on a fiesta (blob eye) 03 +. Saw a basic 1.25 advertised localy by a small dealer at £3450, was in nice condition though had no AC elec windows etc, 1 owner 30k miles. My friend decided to go for it, negotiated to £3300 and put down a £250 deposit there and then and agreed to collect next day.

The next morning she did a hpi check and the car came back as a 'total write off ' - naturaly she didn't want to go ahead and quite honestly unless the car was really cheap to reflect this, im not sure many people would. So i called the guy up and politely told him that we were dissapointed to learn it was a cat d and would not be going ahead, his response aside from being very patronising at my knowledge of a cat d car was - "well if you didn't ask, im not going to tell am i". I couldn't be bothered to argue with him even though his attitude was appauling and told him that we would pick the deposit up later. He told me that it was non- refundable, even though this was not disclosed at the time and the receipt was written on a blank scrap of paper with no company details or terms and conditions.

So is this cowboy behaviour, can he do this and should he have told us about the cars history? Does he have a leg to stand on, what would you do?- my thoughts are to slap a summons on him and contact trading standards. Any advice from traders or similar experiance would be brilliant!

I think quite frankly you should have discovered this information initially.
You should have asked to see history, had the car had been involved in any accidents etc

Mmm I dont agree. As the guy isa dealer, then he's in the wrong. I would seek CAB's advise and seek out Trading Standards. If it was a private sale then yes, its up to the buyer to find out and to prove the seller knew it was a CAT D, but as a dealer, then its bang in the wrong. Go get some proper advice !

I would speak to the dealer and say that unless he gives you back the deposit, then you will now do you damned hardest to earn that `£250` back by getting him investigated by trading standards, CAB, even the police for fraud. So, its far easier that we just agree to disagree, return the money, and part being friends.

Even mention how you will ring Watchdog and tell them how a dealer is selling CAT'D cars without telling owners. Sell it as a dealer selling death traps to the public. Tell him you wont stop grassing on him, reporting him, and that it will be your life's mission from now on. Dont get angry on the phone, just be firm and make sure he realises you wont let go. Even mention your a member of over 15 car forums and will high light this problem on every one. Mention you will ring your local paper telling that a dealer in your area is selling death traps.


Have you seen the film Taken ? Where the guy tells the kidnapper on the phone that if he gives the child back, that will be the end of it, or he will take this further. Say it like that, be firm, precise and get the message across that you will get that money back or make his life hell.

SBK

trader is legally obliged to tell you if viehcle is on register and is breaking the law by not telling you.

clear cut case for trading standards this one before someone gets caught out.

This and the local press

Another great SN reply ..

No real use now is it ?

Although if he does have a time machine .. maybe ... :rolleyes:


I would get down to citizens advice ..

SIG is right. A trader can't say to you "you didn't ask so I'm not telling you"

Money back or you take it further. If you don't get anywhere - paint stripper. Seen it done to the car dealers next door, costly!

And what exactly is that supposed to mean?



Are you trying to say that you wouldn't ask some basic questions about a particular vehicle that you're thinking of purchasing?

Problem is that he will no doubt have been through all of this before. He may just capitulate and give you the money back if you press him, then again he may not. He might get nasty about things, and if you try the legal route he can just claim that he told you about the fact it was a right off before you paid the deposit.

trading standards would probably do a mystery shop on the trader if reported.
is the car advertised anywhere? if so does it say cat d in an advert?

i know its easy for me to say working in motor trade , but i would never buy a car without asking to see an hpi certificate / or paying for my own report as a good dealer will have hpi'd when it came in.

Well being a civil case, wouldn't it would be down to the Judge to decide on a balance of probabilities basis who to believe?
If so, I don't think it is going to be the used car dealer.

He should have told you, but he doesn't have to tell you if you don't ask. What is the value of the car if it isn't a cat d?

Get a friend to take it for a test drive then bugger off with the car. Sell it back to him for 250. As he will voluntarily be handing the car over you cannot be done for theft.

Some great responses there guys, glad to see the majority are not taking his side. Agreed that basic checks should be made prior to purchase and in fairness Urban they were otherwise she would be the owner of the car now, it was a case of saw the car friday night heres a deposit subject to everything being alright we'll take it tommorow - turns out everything wasn't alright!

I just spoke to her and she has been to the police to report it and is sending a letter basically outlining all the wonderfull ideas you lot came up with- including watchdog! love that one! If he doesn't settle then small claims court etc etc and the fun will begin.

Oh they are based in Stock essex if your interested and funnily enough they have now changed the autotrader add to include the cat d detail, the print out i have here from last week does not! Nob!

2005 FORD FIESTA 1.25 Finesse 3dr Hatchback

:lol1: "CAT D,VERY MINOR(REPAIRED) SCRAPE." :lol1:

Dude!! I just wrote your car off, I keyed it, sorry mate :lol1: Pull the other one

nice one totaly agree i love sarcasm

same happened to me last year but i didnt put a deposit down ,i was p/ex'ing my car agreed a price on both i said ill come back the next day as i had to take wife to work i drove past on the way home and got the reg number.
did that 83600 thing on my mobile and it came back cat d,i went in the next day and he also said you never asked :Suspiciou so i didnt bother

No, I agree with you.. my point is that it has happened and he wants advice .. no use telling him what he should have done ..

Its down to my tiny penis .. :thumb:

The ad state its a cat D, so you may have lost your deposit.

The OP said the advert has been changed and has a print out of the original without that declaration

I didn't think deposits were non refundable anyway under the 14 day rule?

I missed that bit. In that case, I think he definately has a chance of a refund.

What 14 day rule?

If you bought it over the internet or via telephone then yes, the sale would be subject to distance selling regulations, but im guessing you went down, drive it and paid the deposit. So, strictly speaking there is no cooling off period.

As already said, the dealer ISNT legally obliged to tell you if its been written off UNLESS you ask.

The fact you have the original advert AND the updated advert would mean any court in the land would side with the customer on this.

Personally, if it was me i would ring the guy, tell him you have a printout of his two adverts and that trading standards are VERY interested in your case IF you were to take it further. Make sure he realises that you havent taken it further but will do so if the deposit isnt returned. Then explain that you will also involve the police as you have also spoken to them and they believe a fraudulent crime may have been committed, again only if you take it further.

Basically, let him know he is gonna be in a whole load of **** unless he refunds the deposit. If he still plays hardball, do exactly what you said you would do and take him to the cleaners WITH expenses.

Good luck :D

Some of these replies are absolutely priceless! Taking the car and not giving back and the TAKEN "threatening phone call" theory are my fave's!

To state some facts:

Cat d is "car was damaged and repairable, but insurer chose not to repair" This could be a keying down the side and a full respray is required, or a minor bump perhaps. It means that the economies of scale regarding repair price vs value do not add up.

It does NOT mean that the car is a death trap.

Watchdog won't give a flying f*ck, nor will the police as no fraud has taken place and if it were to go any further, it would more likely be a civil case rather than a criminal one.

Trading standards prob won't be interested, because all the guy has to say is that he didn't know it was cat d, but after he was informed by the prospective buyer, he changed it on the advert! They may well visit/contact/write a warning to the trader but thats where it will end.


Unfortunately, it's buyer beware in these circumstances. If you didn't ask if it was subject to any insurance claim, he will just say he didn't know!!!!!

If he's a trader, he'll know exactly what he's liable for I'll wager!

"slap him with a summons" is an interesting move. Do you have any semblance of a clue of how a civil action works? You could try filing with the small claims court but to be honest if you don't think about a HPI check BEFORE buying a car, I don't think you'd win.

And the receipt is a scrap of paper?

And you were supposed to be "Helping" your lady friend? !!!!

The only thing that you could do is forget all the bullsh1t on this thread, all the TAKEN crap and the moronic answers, and answer this.

Has your friend signed anything?

im off to look at a car 2mo, iv HPI'd it before iv even seen it. i find this good practice and has saved me buying a cat-c write off previously. its a golden rule of the used car market imo - should have been the first thing you and your lady friend did anyway IMO.

Cat -d is no biggy anyway. knock him down a bit lol!

RJM - "Take back what you've said above and we we forget all about it. If not, then I will find you. " :-)

I do agree with you, obviously at the end of the day, from a legal position the guy hasnt done anything wrong, but we all know he has morally. We know he's kept quiet and was trying to palm it over to a `less informed` buyer.

Im not saying the above suggestions are water tight or even viable, but trying to make the point that is the £250 worth it, if someone will try their hardest to make life hard for his business, reporting him for anything and everything to various groups / authorities, whether his guy gets anywhere or not ?

For me, I would give the money back and be done with the matter.

As for trading standards, you dont know if this guy has been reported before, so worth a call. For £250, its definately worth spending a day trying to do as much damage to this guys reputation as possible, legally. The phone call suggestion was to alert the dealer to this, and giving him the option to stop it now, or be prepared.

Out of interest, I was quite impressed with the film TAKEN. :-)

Also, a CAT D could be a scratch or a shunt. If I was buying a car and found it to be a CAT D, I would walk away, as there are so many cars out there. So, it does matter.

SBK


SBK

As a trader the guy has done wrong. Its up to the trader to disclose all the details about the car, not the buyer to ask. If it was a private sale, then that is a different matter.

The distinction is that as a trader he is deemed to be a professional in his trade. It is therefore expected in law that he should know what he is doing. Therefore, even if he did not genuinely know that a car was a write off, its still his fault for not telling someone as the law expects that he should have found out.

Two ways of looking at this:

Your argument is that your buying a car with a stigma due to its history, therfore its value is less than what he asking for it - hence needs a price reduction or refund of deposit (you can't say its unsafe or in poor condition as you agreed to buy it in its present visual state).

His argument is; The dealer has priced the car to reflect its actual present condition. There are plenty of cars that are HPi clear that are like a preverbial patchwork quilt due prior smash repairs (which did not write-off the car, therefore not recorded). Does this make a HPi clear car worth more than a car in better condition but Cat D registered?

So you have stigma vs actual condition. Stigma alone won't stand up in this type of argument. You need to argue its condition and your deception of that and its history.

It will help if you find somthing physically wrong with the car's condition to reject it - evidence of poor body repairs being the main one.

The problem with Cat D is condition of cars vary massively - from a simple stolen recovered with a broken ignition lock and a scuff on the bumper, to cars that have been in hefty shunts (boarderline cat C).

You're rather missing the point: upon being informed by the buyer that the car was a Cat D (and therefore not as advertised) he has refused to return the deposit. If he didn't know up front it was a Cat D (unlikely if he knows his stuff) then at the point he found out he should have offered to reduce the price or hand the deposit back.

Threaten him with a trip to the Small Claims Court. The costs involved will make it not worth hanging onto the deposit.

Les