450-500 BHP torque bias fast road build?
 

I'm going to take my 96 Type Ra off the road end of October to start work on it, I already know exactly what I want to do with the suspension/chassis and body/cosmetics.

But I really don't know what i'm doing with the engine and running gear, atm i've got a 2.0 350bhp forged APi engine but I want more power, I want to do it properly with reliability in mind.

So any ideas what I need to get 450-500 bhp and what I need to support it for fast road use, so I know what i'm doing before I approach APi and other tuning companies for quotes on the work and parts?

This is a long term project so budget isn't too much of an issue, but it still has to be realistic for someone earning 20k a year.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to revise your targets as it will cost you the best part of half your gross annual income to do that.

A fully forged 2.5 build with pistons, rods, shells, gaskets mated with a twin plate clutch of some flavour (I chose cusco). You are also looking at an aftermarket ecu, possibly/probably a gearbox, MD321T+ or V turbo, injectors, fueling system alterations, FMIC, induction, bigger exhaust, ......

Stick with less than 400 for the road unless you can really afford it - the step over 400 is very expensive and hardly useable on the road.

I've already got a Simtek ecu, fmic, full 3" japspeed system up to the headers, apexi induction kit.

Which gear box and diffs should I be considering?

Is there anything else I need to upgrade to run that sort of power, like oil coolers, swirl pots, duel fuel pumps....etc?

You will need a 6 speed oe ppg gearbox to cope with that sort of power and view my scooby for some more parts you would need to change.

Banny

I agree with Dynamix
Unless you want to specifically track the car anything over 400bhp is not required on the road. Many of us have been there and done this....... various things breaking on the way

Mine is in the powerband your looking at and sure its quick but I only really need on the Track (well..., actually once you do a few track days you'll realise that this level of power is woefully inadequate), what with the ever increasing Traffic on the roads

My serious suggestion would be to sell your car and buy one second hand.........with a spec your looking for - there must be some out there...

The problem with Modifying I have always found is that there are hiccups and delays all through the process.... its fairly inevitable and things end up costing far more and being delayed for a lot longer than you would like

If you can get a second hand car with this spec at a decent price that would for me be the way to go................

I agree with the others comments too, i think 500bhp for a road car is pretty unusable tbh and in an RA Classic i,m sure 400bhp with similat torque WILL be a monster for road use.

I,ve been down the 450+ bhp route 3 times, my last only being about 6months ago with an Evo 8 MR and tbh you could hardly use the power it gave out, save yourself some money imo with a 400 build, some great brakes, gearbox etc and i,m sure you,ll have a VERY quick RA....

I would just stroke a 2ltr closed deck block giving you about 2.1ltr?? 6 speed gearbox's can be had cheap enough and the turbo is up to you ?? persdonally I would just put an md321t on it as it will give you a definate 450bhp'ish. I think you will be looking at nearer £15k for a complete build unless you grab some good bargains ???

Plus dont forget your car will be a lot quicker than the newer variaties because its circa 200kg's lighter

The newer version cars need at least 50bhp more just to keep up in terms of power to weight ratio's

Some really good advice for me to think over, thanks people.

A "REAL" 500bhp in a Spec C Newage is a handful.... in a Classic, it would be totally insane on the road imo. I will have at least 100kg's on you..... this is a lot, especially as your chassis will not be as good as a Newage.

Things have moved on in the tuning game with 450-500bhp availability, with the RIGHT bit's. It is expensive though, so be warned.

Peak BHP is not everything though and neither is peak torque (in isolation). Lowdown response is also a must for a "road car". I have no idea of your intended use, but if for road, make sure you take this in to consideration. What ever you do, don't chase figures!! I have done that and it has took me over 12 months of stress and development to achieve my initial goal.

Saying all this, it is possible to reach 500bhp on Shell VPower and monster torque..... all with excellent driveability. :)

Yeah sure, go for the new AET drop in turbo. That way you don't need to stop at 450bhp.... this turbo can achieve 500bhp (with supporting mods) without any of the drawbacks of some similar lower power rated turbo's, i.e. the response is excellent and you will have another 50bhp on tap for free..... at last, you can have your cake and eat it. :)

But how far are you prepared to go and how deep are your pockets! :D

There is a lot to be said for "only" a 360bhp road car..... but hey, fill your boots! :D

450-500 is definitely not cheap as the others have said. You really have to think about what your intended use is for the car... road or track bias or both? If more road use then you have to think about driveability, spool, road manners etc. On a classic I imagine it could well be a real handful as a road car. I run a new age and that's frightening enough at times:)

Also, don't under-estimate the amount of effort on your part to get there... it won't all happen perfectly, there'll be delays, glitches, and plenty of mapping and remapping and tweaking. Not to put you off at all because you will learn a lot, and hopefully you'll end up with what you planned for. Good luck with it all:thumb:

shaun perhaps you should give lennard an idea of your spec
and how much its taken to get there, fantastic car and performance but surely not possible on most peoples modest incomes :D

Its very easy to get a reasonably priced mid-range bhp car if you are doing the work yourself, but since he is getting others to do it and therefore all new parts etc costs will be ££££££

yes its possible to get 498.5bhp on v power, especially with a well specced engine, but it costs a bloody mint.

from the OP original post it is clear that he wont have the £££ necessary to spend a whole year's wages on engine, avcs ported heads, cams, ecu, mapping and ancilliiares to get to 500.

Dont try it - 400 on a core engine and basic (but good) mods will get you a great car for the road. It isnt worth over stretching for the sake of dyno numbers that you really cant use on the road. 500 (+ in my case ;) ) is pretty scarey on the road.

The roads are littered with 450+ bhp projects that end up being broken.

I think there,s some REALLY good advice on this thread Lennard, BUT it,s your decision & cash at the end of the day, like Shaun has said, DON,T get caught up in the BHP numbers game, me & Shaun have probably spent more on our cars than most, (NOT JUST SUBARU) I,m well over 100k on cars mods :iamwithst get yourself a nice, responsive road car, you,ll be SUPRISED how good a well setup 400 bhp car can be on the road, trust me...:thumb:

have to agree with some of the above posts,im running a simtec with circa 420bhp on v power for road use on a bugeye spec c (1290kg)and this is more than enough.on the 2nd map im running circa 500 bhp and on the road it is just mental.............hold on tight :)on a classic such as yours 400 bhp is plenty on the road

To give you some ideas i had a 1998 sti vers 4 430 -500 and it cost me to build and buy it £30 grand all in and still wasnt spot on,you seem to spend more and more every time u change 1 part u need to change another 3-4 to go with the 1 you changed .....

Its never ending,but hey good luck

To build of that said takes a lot of time,stress,grief and of course money and it's forever off the road due to varoius glitches but when it's going its mental...Good luck either way

ignore duncan and his power figures. Its only relevant if you want to cheat and use go go fuel. Lol

Seriously though. My spec is can be seen, by viewing my scoob. You can obviously do it cheaper and the car was built for track use, but if i was to do this again and right the first time, i would be talking £21k plus labour plus vat at least.

That price includes all required ancillaries and handling mods etc.

That does not include gear box, which on a classic you would have to up rate.

So the best part of 3 years net income....

meh, Duncan used a splash of bio, Shaunee used a splash of cosworth ;)
Both have the same effect of advancing figures over standard parts ;)

Except my bio saved me money and got better figures :lol1:

Duncan what octane is bio fuel rated at and how much do you mix in with petrol?

Banny

I know the Bio Race fuel is 109 octane but I was/am using std Morrisons Pump Bio made from freshly squeezed turnips and its octane rating isnt shown. I would think it is around the 107 mark though.

I use in the same way as others use methanol except that this is pump fuel that is readily available in east anglia, is duty paid and not as dangerous to handle.

Definitely needs mapping.

Need to find a local place that supplies it, seems like a very viable alternative to methanol :)

Banny

I am sure you will have a Morrisons store up there :thumb:

Duncan needs to pull out all the stops.... his car weighs another 100kg's than mine! :D

Duncan,
Money is NOT the issue..... "cheat's never prosper" IS! :D

BP have 102 octane down here iirc, pricey mind

Who gives a sh1t about cheating... a result is a result no matter how you get there :D

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