Td05 16g
 

Question please. So far my00 uk turbo has a full hayward and scott system, tsl panel filter, sports cat downpipe, uprated fuel pump and uprated plugs. Im a bit of a worrier and want to make sure im doing the right thing. So far its running the standard td04 turbo and its been mapped recently by simon. Expecting power to be close to 275?? Tomo im uprating to a tdo5 16g and getting it remaped also. do you think i will be happy??

Regards Dan

Yes!
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For a while, and then you'll want even more! ;) :D

Suggest you consider an AVCR to maximise boost response, and permit higher boost to be used in lower gears, and get rid of the pesky drive by boost cut mode built into the ECU. Simon will be able to explain fully. For gods sake get it rubber mounted on the bracket where the current solenoid is located though or the clicking will drive you nuts! :)

ns04

Hi mate thought you might be the first to respond, lol. We have spoke before. Im just trying to justify the cost over the performance gain?

Dan

Ah, yes! Basically with that set up you're looking at somewhere in the region 320ish bhp and similar torque. For a UK classic/new age non-sti it's around this power level that things start to get pricey if you want to go much higher and be assured of reliability, as gearbox and engine internals become real considerations.

I would really recommend the AVCR-R though, as the annoying thing about the VF 35 conversion on mine was that it was obvious that the car simply wasn't performing to its potential in the lower gears, relative to the higher gears; the classic can't be mapped with in gear boost compensation, you see. And that boost cut facility was a PITA and dangerous if you ask me! Don't get me wrong, it was still a significant improvement, but the AVCR unlocks the cars potential in the lower gears: the way mine now lunges forward in 1st and second on boost is fabulous now...unless you have a weak stomach :D

You'd be well advised to give consideration to your intercooling at some point in the future too.

Good luck! :)

ns04

Again your feedback is appreciated. Last one- So i will notice a big gain??

Regards Dan

Oh yes, once its been mapped, the bigger blower makes a pronounced differences: hits harder and longer! The boost hit will chime in a bit later, but the turbo flows more air even at lower revs, so you'll find the car will still feel more meaty at lower revs.

I think you'll be impressed.

ns04

Thats what i wanted to hear. Thanks again mate.

Dan.

I have a MY00 with the following mods:

TD05 16g Turbo.
Apexi ECU & Power Commander FC.
Harvey Smith ported & wrapped headers.
Harvey Smith up-pipe.
Ninja Sports Cat downpipe.
Magnex SS decat centre back.
Hybrid SBC-D-RX Boost controller.
Walbro 255lph fuel pump.
K&N Induction kit.

I had it mapped by Steve Simpson and have figures of 300BHP & 282Ftlb (305BHP was reached but was on the limit so for reliability was limited to 300).

The slower spool up is what I noticed the most to begin with and you will need to make more use of the gears if you want to make fast progress from low speeds, but when that turbo hits full boost you will have a hard time keeping up with the gear changes until you get used to it :eek: :lol1:

When I first got it done I couldnt imagine why anyone would need more power but like all things, it becomes the norm over time.

I am more than happy with the mods I have done and dont regret a single penny :thumb:

EDIT: Have been told that by losing the sports cat and getting a full 3" system I can expect around a safe 320BHP.

Cheers. I know its not mega money but its allways good to get other peoples opinions. Please keep them coming.

Regards Dan.

Done the same to mine about 2 years ago,mapped by jgm and yes the initial earlier spool of the 04 was missed,but you very quickly adapt to the td05 and its a great upgrade......

That's not the case mate! a 2 and a half inch exhaust (assuming good quality)is perfectly adequate for your power levels, and the Ninja cat you have is very good quality and probably zaps about 2bhp!

Your figures seems a bit low for your mods frankly (especially the torque), this may be simply a case of not all cars making the same power , but I would have expected about 320 bhp and similar torque on your set up as it stands (how were the figures derived?). I got that from a MY99 with a VF35 set up mapped by the Guru Bob Rawle :) As for reliabiity, not a single fault a year and a half on and now upgraded with an FMIC to 340bhp and 343 ft lbs

The next logical step for you would be better intercooling and bigger injectors! Exhaust mods would be a waste and make your life more difficult in respect of MOT etc... If you're not going to a FMIC I'd also bin the induction kit- won't get you any more bhp and may even be letting some ponies escape!

Ns04

those figures seem very low for your spec,what max boost are you running?
you say 305bhp was reached what was on the limit?

yes i'm sure your be more than happy:thumb:

The figures were achieved on the 'Town End Garage' rolling road as said above by Steve Simpson. It recorded 282 ft lbs @ 1.26 bar on the rollers. The car was mapped on v-power. I am running 1.25 bar max on the road.

I am assuming 305 was on the limit but will need to check, I will post this when I know.

Wind the boost up to 1.5 :)

The low boost explains it.

1.35 would give you the outputs in the more common range and the car would be fine at that level.

Ns04

that's probably why the figures are low as your only running 1.25 bar max
i would have thought for your setup you should be running around 1.4 bar max
safely:thumb:

Mike wanted his car to be safe and to run on Super petrol only. No NF. The results achieved from his car are very good, in my opinion, for the money he has spent, the spec he is running and inline with his requirements. The car already had a cone filter (which would not have been my choice) when it came to me along with the SBC-D-RX.
We took performance figures before and after fitting the ported headers and the car was far more enjoyable and responsive. Noticably so. Fitting the TD05 did not result in any reduction in the acceleration times from 1500 rpm to 6000rpm in 4th because of the spool being about 250-300 rpm up the rev range from where the TD04 was. However, it was a case of slower is faster because above about 3,000 rpm the car was far quicker and could now achieve 6,500 rpm in the space available whereas 6,000 rpm was all we could do previously.
Asked if he would rather have the car with the TD04, Mike answered no chance.
The SBC-D-RX is a value for money boost controller that also removes the fuel cut and costs little more than a manual bleed valve. The SBC -D-SE is a complete stand alone unit with its own boost solenoid and half the cost of the AVC-R. (Both Hybrid items that I stock)
When Mike's mods were agreed, it was pointed out he would be running a very safe boost, 1.25 bar max, the sports CAT probably accounted for 10 bhp, the TMIC was already chucking out high temperatures and running NF would allow for more ignition advance. I have not recommended changing the exhaust system which is more than adequate although personally I would remove the CAT. Despite manufacturers claims I have not seen a sports CAT that does not account for around 10 bhp and some are a good bit more.
Comparing power outputs is all very well but Mike's intention was not to go for a headline figure and he has spent incredibly little achieving what he alredy has and knows what the next items for attention would be if he were to go further in the future. Running more boost on this particular car before addressing the ACT issues would, in my opinion be foolhardy and could land Mike with a big repair bill.

Thanks for the explanation Harvey.
Let me say that I am in no way disappointed by what I have achieved for the money I spent, in fact, its the opposite, I am delighted with the cars performance. Reliability was indeed a key factor in the mods I chose so if 1.25 bar is recommended by you as the safe max then that is what it will remain set at (for the time being anyway :norty: ).

To the OP, if you get anywhere around the power I have or even more then I cannot think of any reason why you won't be happy :thumb:

Good luck with whatever you choose! :D

Thanks for the explanation Harvey.

I should make it clear that my comments were in no way a criticism of the set up, nor Steve's mapping, just seemed odd that this particular example was falling out of the "common range" for a 16G with supporting mods.

It is important to note that it's all very well for us to say "would have expected more etc" BUT we couldn't see what was going on with the car and weren't under instructions from the owner. In this case a conservative map was requested and the boost set accordingly, which certainly explains the figures. What they don't tell you, of course, is the benefits of a larger blower across the rev range etc... :)

When Bob mapped my car on VF35 with the std intercooler at 1.35 he commented straight away that an FMIC like the Hybrid would be a very good investment!

Perhaps if the Anglo doesn't want to go higher than the current outputs, a hybrid TD04 might provide that output comfortably whilst providing better boost response than the Td05?

IMHO once you've had a bigger turbo though, you can never go down a size ;) So he needs that hybrid intercooler and then he can unleash the 16G :D

Ns04

Dan: You will notice a big difference between a TD04 and a TD05 even at the same boost.

My TD05-16g has a dawes device to control the boost, a job which it does very well. 340/340@ 1.5bar with aftermarket headers.

A 16g can be a real brute with the boost turned up, but you will need the right supporting mods. It will also give your gearbox a very hard time if used to its potential ;)

I would recommend a STi8 TMIC, FPR and aftermarket headers if you do want to get the most out of it. Maybe fit a Hybrid FMIC in the first place if you plan on going much further.

My 16g spec has been the same for a few years now...

I cannot remember what Anglo paid for his TD05 16G but it was something around £130. The turbo and Apexi (which was for very little money) were Anglo's budget choice before I was involved and I think he has done very well for a beginner.
If I remember rightly and I stripped the turbo down, checked it over and ported the exhast inlet housing to mate the up-pipe. A hybrid 04 would have cost a lot more. The whole point is that this is a reliable 300 bhp for not a lot of money with potential for more at a later stage because the ground work has been done.
I thought it was important to put the spec into context because headline figures were not his objective.
Having fitted and tested an STi 8 TMIC to one of my own cars to have first hand experience, that will not be an option I follow again. It is an expensive route, a lot of work and I have doubts about the benefits which are being assessed at present. Having done several back to back tests on tubular v my own ported headers, I am yet to find a set of tubular headers that can spool as well to make any possible top end gains worthwhile. Owners who have been sold tubular and removed them because of poor spool or response and then gone to my ported have all been happy with the overall improvements.
eg. 95 WRX with Hybrid FMIC and one of my TD05-06 20G. V-Power + less than 2 ml/litre NF.
Ported headers 420 bhp and 1 bar in 4th at 3,160 from memory.
GT Spec headers, 422bhp and 1 bar in 4th at 3,440 rpm.
No other changes other than mapping on the same set of rollers.

Commerical interests aside :

Fitting a STi8 TMIC is not a big job on a MY00 and it is very capable. It's still what I recommend for these sort of power levels and what I have fitted to my own car.

Dyno figures aside, a 16g+STi8 TMIC + Aftermarket headers will result in a very quick road car, which can also be very capable of competing with 450bhp+ cars on the drag strip ;)

Just IMHO. :)

Bob

My experience when looking into the subject of intercooling on a classic from the perspective of someone who ddn't want to get his hands dirty was that once you've paid for the custom fabrication, the bigger scoop and undertray and of course, the intercooler itself, the Sti 8 conversion isn't much cheaper than the FMIC and installation. Fundamentally the TMIC is in the wrong place i.e. on top of a baking hot engine! I don't do drag racing myself, but would have thought this would be a concern?

If drag racing is important to the poster, (well actually I'd suggest doing this for maximum drive-ability anyway) I'd deffo get a boost controller that will permit in gear boost compensation to be "mapped" in which will allow the turbo to deliver its potential in the first 3 gears, this should more than compensate for any additional lag over the TMIC between changes than an FMIC might create, which I'm convinced is minimal, if it exists at all when the DV is deleted.

Unless you really don't want to cut into your bumper and inner wing/can't live with the extra induction noise, I think the hybrid FMIC is the best and most economical choice for a classic.

Ns04

Bob : Your drag strip achievements are to be admired but what is best for a quarter mile time is not necessarily best for an all round road car.
On a drag start I expect you come off the line somewhere beyond 5000 rpm and each up shift will take place somewhere in excess of 6000 rpm and probably past 6500 rpm. Therefore on a drag run you probably spend no time below 5000 rpm. Drive like that on the road and you are heading for a jail sentence.
On a road car the time spent beyond 4000 or 4500 rpm will be a small percentage and that is why ported headers with early spool show clear advantages on a road car until very large turbos are deployed.
I am sure you do everything you can to minimise heat soak prior to your drag start and a top mount only has to keep induction temperatures under control for 10-14 seconds flat out during the quarter mile.
A road car has to maintain induction temperatures continuously for extended periods including stationery periods at traffic lights, road works, motorway queues etc. where heat soak is a big disadvantage on a top mount. High boost levels can be maintained for several miles at a time. In the cruise a good FMIC will be within 2 deg. C. of ambient and even pushed it is unlikely to exceed 6-12 deg.C over ambient. The same cannot be said for the STi 8 TMIC at 371 bhp in my experience.
So I think it is horses for courses as they say.