These are key excerpts from last nights programme. I have read them several times and I believe that they warrant a complaint to the Broadcasting Standards body http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

Any thoughts anyone - especially legal types. My view is that the programme has potentially caused me both financial and reputational damage by stating that my car has been ILLEGALLY imported!!!!!!!

TRANSCRIPT EXCERPTS

Hard Cash: This might not be the only trap - even if you succeed in getting delivery of your imported car, it may not be what it seems.
Here we’ve got two new Mitsubushi 4x4s which look identical. Although, take my word for it, this one has been ILLEGALLY imported, and it’s not to UK specification. Which means it is not designed for use on British roads.

It’s known as a GREY IMPORT.

Paul Wilson (Mitsubushi UK): We know often these cars are brought into the UK, and they may not have the same braking system, they may not have airbags that are specified for the UK, they may not have the same electrical systems. And all of those have a major impact on safety.
…
Hard Cash: To get the low down on the pitfalls of grey imports I have arranged to meet motoring journalist Quentin Wilson, who hopefully will make it all sound very black and white…

HC: So how easily would you say that car buyers are actually being duped?

QW: My problem with Japanese Grey Imports is that you can’t speak to the previous owner, he is Japanese. You can’t trace him. You don’t know whether the mileage is genuine. You don’t know if the car has been wrapped around a bus shelter in Nagasaki because we have no access to Japanese records…
…
PLOD: …but most importantly, you are probably buying a vehicle that has got no underseal, no warranty for corrosion and wasn’t built for the sort of climate that we have in this country.

QC: …for reasons that I have yet to fathom, people carry on buying Japanese Grey imports despite like me saying in words of one syllable that they’re not a good buy. Last year I think it was 245,000 grey Japanese imports came into this country. That’s an awful lot. So the market is growing, and people buy them just because they think they are making a saving - they don’t go into the transaction with care or detail, or by doing their homework. And they will find in time that, that is not the best way to do it.

I watched 5 mins of that programme, and then switched it off in disgust. I might have known they would spend the entire time bashing imports.

Complete rubbish.

If it were true about the different specs on the cars, then obviously Mitsubushi UK wouldn't touch any grey import car!!

How come they are happy to fix and service my friends FTO before they were officially imported into this country.

Didn't even need to book it in, I phoned three garages for him, when he had an overheating problem, all three could have looked at his car that day!!!!

Where's the consistancy there??

For example how different are the RalliArt cars to a Japanese (Grey = BAD!!! - According to the program) imports??

OK so you don't know who owned it before, but some of you guys hav bought from new, so no issues there.

Underseal is offered by most grey imports, so not an issue!!

There are companies fighting to take your money when it comes to servicing or fixing, and I'm sure on the whole they all know what they are doing. So again what's the issue.

The ONLY thing I thought they forgot to mention was the octane rating of the fuel in Japan!!!!!

You'd think with all my comments I actually own a grey import car, sorry guys it's a UK car!!! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

You'd think Subaru would be happy with the extra income from servicing grey imports as well!!! Their comeback, the P1!! Too little, too late Subaru (UK)!!!!

Rant over!!!!

The BBC's guidelines for cause for complaint are:

The BBC’s Editorial Values:

"We aim to be the world’s most creative and trusted broadcaster and programme maker, seeking to satisfy all our audiences with services that inform, educate and entertain and enrich their lives in the ways that the market alone will not. We aim to be guided by our public purposes; to encourage the UK’s most innovative talents; to act independently of all interests, and to aspire to the highest ethical standards:"

Impartiality

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Fairness

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…. in the United Kingdom and across the world. BBC programmes and services should reflect and draw on this diversity to reflect life as it is. By doing so we introduce new talent, perspectives, faces and voices enriching our programmes for our audiences.

When portraying social groups, stereotypes should be avoided


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Programme makers should be aware of and respect their audiences’ often diverse views on what will and will not cause offence. The right to challenge audience expectations in creative and surprising ways must be safeguarded but audiences should not be needlessly offended by what we broadcast and publish. It is vital to consider the expectations that audiences’ have of particular programmes, service and time slots.

BBC television schedules must respect the 9 p.m. Watershed.

Avoiding the Imitation of Anti Social and Criminal Behaviour

Audiences are concerned about the possibility of people imitating behaviour they see or hear on television and radio. We should try to ensure that any life threatening, anti-social, or criminal behaviour portrayed in BBC programmes does not encourage copycat actions.

Safeguarding the Welfare of Children

Programme makers must take care to safeguard the welfare of children who take part in programmes They should consider carefully the impact of the programme on any child involved - both in the way it is made, and any possible impact it may have when broadcast.

Fairness to Interviewees

BBC interviews should be well mannered and courteous. They may be searching, sharp, sceptical, informed and to the point - but not partial, discourteous or emotionally attached to one side of an argument. They should not be aggressive, hectoring or rude, whatever the provocation. Interviewees should be given a fair chance to set out their full response to the questions.

Respect for our Diverse Audiences in the U.K.

BBC programmes and services should be relevant and appropriate for all our audiences in all parts of the United Kingdom .

Independence from Commercial Interests

BBC programmes must never give the impression that they are endorsing or promoting any product, service or company. References to all products and services should be editorially justifiable and there should be no element of plugging.

I think there are grounds for complaint in terms of impartiality and accuracy given Rannoch's transcript.

Complains must be sent in writing (doesn't look like they accept e-mails to:

Head of Programme Complaints,
BBC Broadcasting House,
London W1A 1AA.

Alternatively we can send complaints to:

THE BROADCASTING STANDARDS COMMISSION.
The Sanctuary,
London,
SW1P 3JS.

what complete and utter nonsense http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/frown.gif

It makes me mad that these comments, typical of someone with little knowledge, get broadcast on national TV.

Personally I think that their argument doesn't hold water. Whilst I agree that UK cars have different specs and so forth isn't there a side of the coin that says 'erm, but the car is japanese (or whatever) in the first place'?

Why do people get 'grey imports'? Well, for one they are good value for money, they are of generally higher spec than the UK equivelent and more often than not you simply can't get that particular model here.

And as for Quentin Wilson... he's just an annoying t*** who should stick to his (cheesy) insurance ads.

I'm off me soapbox now http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

Rob,

that is brilliant - I beleive that this programme fails many of the guidelines and so a letter could be based on your kind post.

I am happy to have a go at putting something together - I have a taped copy of the programme. It will be in draft form, but it's a start.

Anyone else interested in signing it please add comments below.

Cheers,

R

I'd just like to say..........
I'm not that Paul Wilson http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif


saying that I think the Subaru situation is a bit of a special case, as apart from the P1, you can't buy the full spec cars in this country. The same applies to some other manufactures

Why is it a special case...


...any more so than Skyline, Eunos, or Silvia (check out Private you can buy mine http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif), or Evo 3000GT or those wacky retro Nissans that all the trendy media guys in London drive?

R http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Bleedin numbnuts!

Rannoch my old china, count me in for some top level complaining! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Jon

Where do I sign!

I'll sign.
don't Mitsubishi now have an official grey import centre - not the Ralliart thing, but a place where you can go and buy USED Jap imports. I'm positive they're doing that - if so, it makes a nonsense of their comments.

Also may be worth looking into what the exact changes are on the popular models - get something concrete together so it'll hurt when it's shoved up their backsides.

no wonder theres still so much scepticism with cr4p like that.

Count me in! And by the way, aren't Subaru "Officially" importing the new WRX STI as reported on auto express. What will make these ones "Legal" and import STI's "Illegal"?

Add another signature to the list, I own a UK car (unable afford insurance on an Sti at the time) but got rather upset watching that drivel last night, so would happily sign.

Count me in.
I am about to go down that Illegal path of having a "Grey" car "Imported"

So - any good editors out there - I'm better with pictures.

Anyway, here is a suggested letter. We can all print it off and format it, OR I can open up a new thread with it and we can all sign it electronically (although to have any weight we would need to add our personal detials!) OR I can create a printable version that you can sign and postcode (no need for detailed address) then you can print and send...more suggestions.

Anyway, here is draft one of the text.

Dear Sir/Madam,

The programme Hard Cash that was transmitted on BBC1 at 1930 on Monday 20th November fails to meet the guidelines used by the BBC and that as a result of the programme I am potentially financially and reputationally disadvantaged.

The BBC requires that programmes are impartial and accurate. This was not the case for the Hard Cash programme, specifically the segment regarding ‘grey imports’.

Crucially the segment opened with a representation of grey imports that is blatantly inaccurate. The programme described a Mitsubishi Shogun as being imported, ‘illegally’ and then went on to describe this car as a ‘grey import’. This opening segment creates a clear impression in the viewers mind that illegal imports and grey imports are synonymous. This is inaccurate.

Transcript of the opening segment by Hard Cash Presenter

“This might not be the only trap - even if you succeed in getting delivery of your imported car, it may not be what it seems. Here we’ve got two new Mitsubushi 4x4s which look identical. Although, take my word for it, this one has been ILLEGALLY imported, and it’s not to UK specification. Which means it is not designed for use on British roads.
It’s known as a GREY IMPORT.”

The programme then featured a member of the public who had inadvertently purchased a second hand car that was not of UK origin. The programme stated that the purchaser was unable to drive the car for two years as it was a ‘grey import’. No specific reason was given why the car could not be driven. This is a misrepresentation of the truth, there is no reason why a legal grey import cannot be driven in the UK.

On the question of impartiality the programme only featured views that were emphatically against the grey import market which lacks any form of balance and does not meet the BBC’s requirement for impartiality.
The aforementioned segment features emphatic representations from a representative of Mitsubishi UK, a DCI from the Stolen Vehicle Unit and a well respected motoring journalist, Quentin Wilson.

First of all the representative of Mitsubishi states that differences in Japanese cars, ‘all have a major impact on safety’. The implication clearly being that they are unsafe.

The DCI states that a grey import, ‘wasn’t built for the sort of climate that we have in this country’. This was part of a segment regarding stolen cars, which led straight into a discussion of grey imports with no clear differentiation between the two. Even so, what qualifies a policemen specialising in theft to be an expert in the impact of climate on cars from different countries.

Finally this was followed by Quentin Wilson stating that, ‘for reasons I have yet to fathom, people carry on buying Japanese Grey Imports despite people like me saying in words of one syllable that they’re not a good buy’. Quentin Wilson is of course biased as he is a car dealer that does not deal in imports.

As the owner of a perfectly legal and safe ‘grey import I am now potentially stigmatised as the owner of, not only, an unsafe car, but in fact an illegal car. In addition to this damage to my personal reputation, I am also potentially going to be financially at a loss if the inaccurate views of the Hard Cash programme are not rectified.

There are a number of facts that are easily accessible in the public domain that an impartial and balanced programme on ‘grey imports’ should have included.

The most important is that there are facilities within the law that enable cars to the be imported to the UK that are not currently Type Approved for use on British (or European Roads). This facility is the SVA or Single Vehicle Approval test. In fact it is a requirement that the test is carried out for non-Type Approved cars as without it, it would be impossible to register, tax and insure the car for the UK roads.

The SVA test is effectively a ‘super’ MOT style test ensuring that any imported car meets the stringent safety standards that are applied to the majority of cars on the road in the UK.

Vehicles that are brought to the UK under this facility are typically called, ‘grey imports’.

Mitsubishi represented the Japanese differences as having a major impact on safety, and historically have been one of the most vociferous opponents of the grey import market.

However the programme did not highlight that Mitsubishi actually own a grey import broker, Ralliart. Indeed cars from Ralliart, imported under the SVA system, have featured on more than one occasion on BBC’s Top Gear.

Mitsubishi have also announced that they will service grey imports through their dealerships and have recently further announced that in addition to importing new grey imports they are also going to broaden their activity to include imports purchased second hand in the Japanese market.

Overall a programme that failed to be either accurate or impartial. A programme that was not open minded and fair, and did not show a respect for the truth. With many strands of thought that were both unreflected and under represented.

There is also no evidence that the programme makers were accurate or checked their facts, or sought appropriate advice.

The only acceptable remedy would be for Hard Cash to rectify this by representing a more balanced view of the car import market. This will ensure that some of the very valid concerns that are raised, which apply to all car buying activity, are made within an appropriate context.

Yours Sincerely,

[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 21 November 2000).]

Rannoch & Robski,
I agree there is a risk of grey imports being stolen.

But it is realy at matter of risk.

How many cars imported in the last 2 years have been found to be:

1) Stolen
2) Written off
3) Clocked

Compare this against the car crime capital of the world (UK) and I think Japan will come out far less risky than used UK cars.

PS thanks for the posts, and I totally support your excellent work. http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Missed hard cash, but reading the above makes me furious http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/mad.gif not only do I own a grey but I HAVE to pay for this inaccurate crap to be made! The only reason WILSON is clattering on about buying grey's is because he'e a car dealer himself and not reaping in the profits
of his own sales!
Top Gear are turncoats on this one as well,
one week they'll praise the grey imports, then the following they'll treat the grey culture as the apple in eden.

Well said Rannoch http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gifTotally agree with all of the above
Regards

Iain

Hmm, I couldn't get the link to the live chat to work! Was it just me or has anyone else had problems?

Excellent.....

The program was a disgrace, and MR Wilson, at best, a deceitful, misleading toe rag.

I seem to recall that TopGear, both the program, and the magazine, have done articles on "how to import", and not just from the EC.

Maybe this could be done in conjunction with the various other "Jap car clubs", and really make some impact,

Well done guys,

Mark.

I agree, what a lot of crap.

In addition to what has already been said, Quentins implication is that grey imports are all second hand. I bought mine new from a Subaru dealer but it is still a grey import.

What a lot of old tosh.

bkar

What a load of old rubbish.
Beware all Greys are not legal!!!
OH YEAH! Protect agents/offical importers from losing their fat UK margins more like.
Totally biased and unrealistic.
I seem to remember MR Mercedes telling people to look for better value abroad...Thanks mate! What was your fee for this two pennys worth.
I'll sign..too right! ....mutter mutter

Top letter.

gets my vote.

MattN

Please sign up to the formal complaint thread - lets get at least 100 names

Cheers

wrx.co.uk

the problem is that people will move over there to deliberately steal cars for shipment to uk. They have less security, as they (currently) have low car crime. So they are easy pickings.

Would you
a) try to steal cars from the uk and ship elsewhere, bearing in mind the complexity of uk alarms, and the general knowledge of the police about the "tricks of the trade"
or
b) prey on a market where its virtually unknown, wit the cars you steal having a strong market in the uk?

robski

Robski,

If you are found stealing cars to order in Japan, I do not think you will be sent to Spain for 'corrective sunny beach holidays' or let off with a slap on the wrist saying 'Oh - it's only ten cars' like the corrective system here in the UK.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's far more likely that you'll get your knackers removed and then thrown in the clink.

I know where I'd prefer to nick a car if I was so inclined - A country where the 120Db alarm system is ignored and the courts don't bother dishing out any sort of decent punishment.

editid fr sspeling

Cheers
Joolz



[This message has been edited by jbryant (edited 22 November 2000).]

Don't want to be rude, can we please stay on thread as I need to print this to attach to the Beeb letter.

Cheers,

R

Regarding clocking of grey imports.

I am living in Hongkong and have been trying to sell my scoob.

Took the car to one of the local car dealers and he commented on the relatively high mileage. I replied "yes, but it's been serviced regularly by the main subaru agent so should be no problem".

Was quite surprised at his reply: "oh that's a shame, because most dealers here will turn back the mileage on your car...but they cant now since your car's details will be on the main agents computer."

A surprisingly honest car dealer! The government here to sod all to prevent this. Make your own conclusions.....how can you tell a used 2nd hand grey import isn't clocked?

I also totally agree with robski above. It is commonly known that many cars stolen in Hongkong are shipped abroad to order. The place is too small and overpoliced for it to be sold locally. How do you know that 2nd hand grey import you just bought isnt one of these?

Although Quentin Wilson is a car dealer he is also a journalist for the BBC. Do you really think he's that biassed...or perhaps he does know a thing or two?

Having said that if I were in the UK I would definitely go for a grey STi to fuel my addiction. But only a new one.....and I'd be expecting depreciation to be more on resale - was that mentioned on the program?

As for what was said about spec, safety, undersealing etc. I'm sure its just the manufacturer scaremongering and the BBC should be critised for reporting only their side. Roads in Asia are no different from those in the UK (worse condition if anything) so saying the car is not suited for UK roads is a load of tosh. My scoob runs quite happily in 35 deg heat aswell...and Japan has sub zero weather.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Banks (edited 22 November 2000).]


[This message has been edited by Andy Banks (edited 22 November 2000).]

The old one about Japanese home-market cars being underspecced and dangerous in comparison with UK cars makes me laugh. Do they really expect us to believe that CEO's of Japanese car manufacturers sit in the board rooms and think "Yes, lets send all the high spec, top notch safe cars abroad and sell all our basic, no electric windows death trap tin boxes to our dear old grannies at home". Sure, sure.

Funnily enough, I didn't even know the programme was on but now understand why the copper that stopped me on the A303 and wanted to crawl over the car/ownership/import paperwork etc yesterday. Even reckoned he could understand Japanese when I showed him the service history papers......!

After checking all the numbers tallied, at least he had the courtesy to say "enjoy the car - we've got an unmarked UK one we use which was great - before it got taken out by a lorry whilst sitting waiting in a lay-by".

Must've been keenly watching the prgramme and following up on what they'd reported about ones stolen and shipped from Japan.