I can't find the olive branch smilie ;)

Thanks for the list, I will make a note of those names, only one of them I spoke to this time round (Miles) and he was a helpful chap.

KF.
EDIT: Just to state that I spoke to TJ as well, but we discussed her earlier :)

[Edited by KF - 12/11/2001 5:23:46 PM]

Useless or not? when your after temping work, it's no probs at all, when your after something permenent they just seem to loose interest?!?!!

All I want is a new job... sniff sniff :D

Apears it's just me who thinks that then?!!?

can any one recomend a good job agency then?

SDD,

I am registered with all the agencies here for months and not had one single phone call ! If they are like with miniuns (Spelling)!! like us, what are they like with companies looking for employees? Makes you wonder!!

Hope something comes up for you soon!

L

Ohh I get lots of pestering phone calls, but never seems to result in anything none the less, never used to have these probs, but when I was using them before I was on Peanuts!

Good luck with your bunch! :)

Dave.

Agencies aren't interested in you unless....

You have a skill/experience that has at least a 80% of getting the position
Your going for a contract/temp work which means potentially endless monthly income/commission for them

Neccessary evil

My regard for recruitment agencies is lower than my regard for estate agencies, and that is low. But...

I used Huxley Associates (they are in Reading, don't know whether they cover a wider area though). They seemed the most human out of a lot, to the point of wanting to meet up for a drink to discuss the sort of thing I was looking for etc, not just "here's a great job, it's not quite for you but, hey, we get lots of commission from it so take it anyway"

www.jobserve.com

You can specify permanent positions only.

Jobserve is full of phantom jobs. I would guess that only one in five is a legitimate position.
The agencies are CV harvesting, and will bombard you when the market picks up. I hope that lots of them go out of business, because for the most part they are pattern matching monkeys.

Most say "don't tell anyone else about this opportunity" but then go on to say "so we don't send cv's to a company that you are already talking to, can you tell me where your cv has gone". Then obviously they are claiming these leads as their own.
This is added to by the problem that most companies have a Recommended Supplier List, and if the company that is sending your CV isn't on that list, you won't get the interview anyway.

Most have no understanding of computers or technology - I was told I was unprofessional for sending a written response to a question in "Wordpad format". It was a .txt file, as no special formatting was required (and I didn't want to mail a 77Kb file when a 1Kb file would do). The fool agency didn't know that you can open .txt files in Word if you want you to.

When they have no understanding of what you are telling them they come out with "I am not a technical person". So, WTF are you representing *my* technical skills to another technical person. It is like going to a garage and being told by the salesman "Oh, I can't drive, and don't understand cars but Bob says it has an engine and some wheels - must be what you are looking for"

In summation. I have yet to find one (I am speaking to 16) that can give me anything I couldn't do myself.

Good hunting.
KF.

I would just say, that I agree about Huxley. Seem to be better than most of the rest - they got me my previous job, and TJ (Teresa) has a voice that would give a dog a bone. :)
KF.

I dealt with TJ at Huxley and thought she was great.

In my experience if you not one of the agencies chosen people do not expect to here from them.

My girlfriend has been looking for the right job for almost a year now. Because she has turned down two jobs because they were not right for her, the agency are not increased any more.

Would be nice to have some kind of service level agreement with the agency so if they are crap, they get very little commission.

Do not think they are as low down as estate agents but they are within the sloppy stuff at the bottom of the barrel.

Hmmm you guys don't realy have a lot of time for agencies by the sounds of it... let me tell you a few things about the industry.

By the way TJ is a good girl! Not bad looking either ;)

IT recruitment is all about SALES... this is a sales role and therefore you don't need to have any technical knowledge to do this role. If you are good at sales then you should be able to recruit succesfully, why?? because it all about asking questions, managing expectations and closing. If you can do this then you can pick up all the knowledge required in order to match succesfully, therefore making a sale and doing what your employed to do.

Unfortunatly as a boss of a company you wouldn't care how your employees make you money as long as they do. This is how it is in recruitment. As we all know times are tough at the moment and a lot of agencies are struggling, this is good because as one of you said earlier 'It gets rid of all the ****' BUT this doesn't mean you will get treated any better :(

Why do candidates feel/get like/treated like ****?

Candidates are 2 a penny and there is no possible way you can help everyone.... and no-matter how good they are if you don't have a role relevant for them then you can't place them :(
So a recruiters time is spent on canvassing companies, doing mailshots and canvassing candidates.... i.e. the lead thing mentioned earlier.

Time is spent on canvassing companies as getting jobs on are key. But in order to do this a lot of mailshotting and cold calling is taking place - this is also unliked :( but never the less could open up an opportunity that could be a deal.

In argument to an earlier comment - Just because an agency isn't on a PSL it doesn't mean the CV they sent over wont be looked at.
If you send the right CV at the right time then the PSL goes out of the window.

Above are just some of the reasons why recruitment companies generally have a bad rep.

They are just doing there jobs and if they don't do this then they won't have a job for long.....

The industry is tough and at the moment the most recruiters are taking horrific pressure, working late and as a result seeing their lifes turn upside down too.

However this doesn't give them the right to treat candidates poorly.

I have replied as I am a recruiter and am fed up of the industry as a whole being slated when a few agencies are **** and causing the problems. I have been recruiting succesfully for almost 3yrs now at the highest level and I am passionate about my job and feel slightly pissed at this all.

Only advice is try to build good relationships with people you feel have some Savee.... frustrated recruiters help happy people ;)

Hope you all find work soon!

Remember... to keep their jobs they have to make money......

Plantie,
Some comments from the other side of the fence:
"this is a sales role and therefore you don't need to have any technical knowledge to do this role."
Agencies are a middle man. The client (recruiter) wants to buy a product (the employee). Agencies are a coundit for that. If they don't understand the product, or the technical requirement of the client, then they will not be selling efficiently.

"Candidates are 2 a penny and there is no possible way you can help everyone...."
So why help any of them? Agencies want to make a profit, so they sell what they want - what suits them best. The point is this: There are vacancies that are going to get filled. Agencies don't create vacancies and they don't create employees - they find them, granted, and as such their revenue comes from manipulating those scarce resources in a manner which is at best opaque, and at worst underhand, for their own ends.
The flip side to your arguement also applies. If companies perceive that agencies don't offer value for money, then they will cease to use them. Similarly candidates don't care who gets them the job and will bear agencies as much loyalty as appears to be given to them.

"Just because an agency isn't on a PSL it doesn't mean the CV they sent over wont be looked at. True. But the pledge made by agencies that they don't want to send your CV to a company that already has it means that there is a lack of transparency here. For example, if I was interested in a vacancy which was represented exclusively by agency (a), and if I went to agency (b) who had heard about the vacancy by a candidate mutual to both agencies, they will put me forwards to the role. Agency (b) won't tell me that they are not on the PSL and correspondingly if the company is only accepting CV's from (a), I am under the impression that I am being represented, when in fact I am not. This is misselling a service.
The scant regard held for PSL's is an indication of the pervasive attitude amongst agencies. They pretend to be working for the client, whilst trying to build a trusting relationship with the candidate (whom they often neither understand or respect) and do everything they can to make money by keeping both parties in the dark.
I wish you the best of luck. I tried to keep the word "you" out of the post, as I understand that there are good and bad agencies. If you are indeed from Huxley, you are in one of the better ones IMHO - and you probably know who I am as well :)
KF.

I got my current job after being contacted by an agency which I had registered with 2 years previously, wasn't really looking for a job at the time, but, who was I to turn down more money? :D

Just after I registsered they had previously sorted out a couple of interviews, one of which should have lead to a job, if only the guy who interviewed me and offered me the post hadn't had to have extended leave for medical reasons shortly after the verbal offer :(

All my interviews from agencies came through Computer Futures, most of the rest of them just seemed to ignore me :( (maybe being based north of the border affected this)

I found out later that they get a reasonable percentage of your first years salary (more than I thought they'd get anyway, but don't want to post it in case I'm not supposed to know ;) )

You should ask... I think 20-30% is typical.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush!

I run a recruitment business and place Directors/Project managers etc on £50k+. I have over 1000 people looking for such work. If I was to speak to each one just once a month, I would do nothing else. Wouldn't have time to run the business, and importantly for you - would have no time to actually find a job for you. I would rather spend my time trying to secure the business so I might have some roles for 'you' rather then do nothing else other than ringing you up once a month to say I have nothing?

How much have YOU paid the agency as a candidate for all the efforts they do (or do not) put in on your behalf? We make good money (very good money if you're good ;) ) but we have to be client focussed as they pay the bills. If you want to pay me to act as your agent, I will happily call you everyday to give you a specific update!

You have a right to expect good service from an Estate Agent - you pay him/her for that service. What you get from the recruitment business as a candidate is free!

I do between 70 and 80 hours a week in the office, and then some work at home (I've been up for 2 hours already this (Saturday) morning getting some work done, emails sent etc).

At the end of the day I ensure all candidates/clients of my business are as fully satisfied as possible by managing their expectations, but some will always expect impossible levels of service and complain if they haven't been spoken to for 48 hours. Who do you think gets the first call?

I don't know the IT recrutment industry, but do know they are going through tough times. A lot of contractors did very well in 97/98/99 and even 00, but that was for a reason. The bubble has burst. Time to move on. I know a number of friends who earned £750/1000 even £2000/day at times, but are now having to be realistic and look at salaried contracts at £60/70k - 75% lower (even 90% lower in some cases) than they were earning two years ago.

If you are not happy with your chosen agency - move. Go to one you have more confidence in!

I am not tarring everyone with the same brush. Like everything there are good and bad. Mostly bad ;)

I don't want to have my hand held and be phoned every 2 minutes. That is plain annoying. I don't even like agencies phoning me to say "Are you still looking for work?" - I approached them, I will do them courtesy of telling them when I find work.

What I do want is an agency to say "I sent your CV to AnyCorp, as we discussed last week, and they said that you don't have enough xyz" rather than "I am talking to AnyCorp who want someone just like you (TM)" and then never hear anything again.

I want an agency to listen to what I am saying, write a precis in their contact notes and to read it before phoning me about a job that has no relevance to my skills or interests.

Really, it is very simple and for the amount of money to be made as ostensibly middlemen I wonder whether I should have a go.

I should add that I am currently looking for a permanent role - perhaps I should see if there is a difference going for contract positions.
KF.

Gary, some excellent comments! unfortunatley I was too busy friday afternoon to write anymore!!

KF, I am sorry to hear you have had some bad experiences with agencies but as Gary said... the business call from us is free and therefore must be prioritised and used as it suits us.

Robertio, we do get a percentage of your 1st yrs salary and this will generally range between 15-40%... (dependant on how good the consultant is!)

As Gary said a good recruitment consultant will make a lot of money but for that he has to put in 60-80 hours per week, take a lot of pressures, from both work and at home and be able to take an unbelievable amount of rejection of which the like of most people would crumble if exposed too. Its hard work and like any other job it takes a certain beast to do it! Hense the pay :D ;)

Oh by the way I don't work for Huxley's ;)
I used to work for Progressive which is part of the same group as Huxley's, Computer futures, Pathway, Real IT, Mercer Grey etc.

KF also..... contract recruiters are completely different beast altogether.... even more impatient, arogant and selfish so don't expect miracles.... especially as their market is struggling more than the permanent market.

Again Happy hunting! ;) Out of work most of us are a good laugh! HONEST!! :D ;)

Gary, some excellent comments! unfortunatley I was too busy friday afternoon to write anymore!!

KF, I am sorry to hear you have had some bad experiences with agencies but as Gary said... the business call from us is free and therefore must be prioritised and used as it suits us.

Robertio, we do get a percentage of your 1st yrs salary and this will generally range between 15-40%... (dependant on how good the consultant is!)

As Gary said a good recruitment consultant will make a lot of money but for that he has to put in 60-80 hours per week, take a lot of pressures, from both work and at home and be able to take an unbelievable amount of rejection of which the like of most people would crumble if exposed too. Its hard work and like any other job it takes a certain beast to do it! Hense the pay :D ;)

Oh by the way I don't work for Huxley's ;)
I used to work for Progressive which is part of the same group as Huxley's, Computer futures, Pathway, Real IT, Mercer Grey etc.

KF also..... contract recruiters are completely different beast altogether.... even more impatient, arogant and selfish so don't expect miracles.... especially as their market is struggling more than the permanent market.

Again Happy hunting! ;) Out of work most of us are a good laugh! HONEST!! :D ;)

OK, let's approach this from a different angle and assume that I am the one at fault.
What can I do to help the agencies to do their job? How can I meet them in the middle? How can I get most value out of the agencies that I speak to? In a nutshell... What is your dream candidate?
KF.

Again KF - I can't speak for the IT industry, but...

Speak to others about agencies, find out who has a good reputation then approach them. Make sure you meet them (ie get interviewed) as without meeting you they can't really give you the service you require, and certainly can't do their clients a justified level of service if they don't know you from 'Adam'. If they refuse to interview you, they are either not worth working with, or you do not have the skillsets they can use. Don't take it personally.

As an example of how far some of us go. I have a £140k role in London (I'm based in Manchester), meeting the candidates is so important I spent the day in London on Tuesday. To fit all the contenders in, this meant catching the 5.30am train to get in London just before 8.30, interview every hour on the hour until 7pm, caught the 7.30pm train from Euston, got back home at 11.10pm :( Now I wouldn't have done that if I didn't have a specific role in London to work on (ie these were more criteria based interviews rather than general meet/greet/get to know/understand meetings), but I would still meet very good candidates, even if I waited until a more convenient time.

KF - the best thing to go with is 'gut feel'. Stick with who you know and trust/respect. Good service shouldn't just mean finding you a job, I can place people and treat them like crap! (but don;t ;) ) I have recently been pulling together some testimonials from both candidates and clients, the best candidate testimonials are from those who I didn't place!

Also make sure they are kept in form of your situation. You don't want daily 'are you still looking' contact, we can't offer it, BUT, my best candidates send me an email once a fortnight/month to let me know they are still looking, ask question about roles/market conditions and generally touch base. Majority of candidates don't let us know when they have found a new job! so 3 months inactivity could mean some businesses will assume you have found your own job and de-activate you!

But most of all, when you find a good recruitment business, treat them with respect. If you see them/us as 'merely middlemen' and treat us accordingly, is it any wonder you don't get good service? We are no more a middleman than stockbrokers, Sainsbury's, car dealers, travel agents, Investment bankers etc etc etc. We are a value adding business service. My average fee is £20-25k although can be as high as £40k. My clients wouldn't pay this if I did not offer and add value!

Gary,
Thanks for the considered response. I think that we are talking about very different types of service. Sourcing £140k directors is very different from sourcing a permanent IT employee in the 20-50k bracket. I don't think that any of the agencies would see me wanting to meet them as helpful. They don't have the skill to interview me and only want to find bulk vacancies and bulk applicants and try to find the most matches.

I understand what you are saying about your type of work. I have had some good experiences with "search and selection agents", but not with vanilla recruitment agencies. I find the difference like night and day. With these guys the distinction is very clear - they are open that they are working with the client's best interests at heart, and act as a proxy to the clients recruitment process. As such they know the market, understand the candidate's skills and will interview them.
However people, like myself, who have less industy specific knowledge, appeal less to search and selection agencies and have to run the gauntlet of pattern matching agencies.
KF.

It might be worthwhile approaching the companies directly and selling yourself. Most companies have job vacancies advertised on their websites. Search on google for companies that are in your area and might be looking for someone with your skills.

I'm in IT and back in September I decided it was time to move on. In the first week I contacted an agency that I thought were a good small company - in the hope that my CV wouldn't get forgotten amongst the other 1000 CVs that the larger agents get... I heard nothing after an initial phone call. I then tried approaching companies directly and landed myself an interview and ultimately a job offer that way. However it wasn't quite what I was looking for so I went back to the agency that I had contacted initially and suddenly they were much more helpful - I guess they thought I was a decent candidate to have been offered a position in the current economic climate. They found me another interview and ultimately I was offered two positions, one of which I have now accepted.

Hope you find something soon...

Gary, I know that we had our differences in another thread, but hatd of to you re: going to London meeting all those people in person etc... Good personal contact/evaluation is the key in this business.

I'm pretty familiar with recruiting / temp agencies / body shops etc (I write software for them), and yeah, there's lots of bad companies out there, but also a few very good ones ... companies that (perish the though) actually care about the people they are "selling". In one company, an "account manager" doesn't manage customers, but a group of 10 to 20 people to make sure they get a good job and stay happy where they are (temporary or not).

KF, IT must probably be the worst sector unfortunately :( as it is still much of a "cowboy industry". Shame really, as the world has never needed good analysts/programmers so much as it does today, crisis or not. But I still have to see a good IT recruiting business to be honest.

Theo

Gary we interview our high level candidates and we also do interviews if we have queries or a client requests it.

KF I think you'll find a lot of recruiters do know how to interview but simply don't have the time. It goes back to the 'talk to you, or look for a role for you' scenario. It's not worth our time.... you guys have mentioned it as a Cowboy industry and in a lot of cases I would agree... but also in IT, you have thousands of cowboy candidates... people who lie massivly about their skills set... I know people hype up their experience but there are a lot of time wasters out there and that doesn't help us serve the decent honest candidates.

Gary put it best... find someone you trust and keep in contact once a week. They will look after you if they can because your not hassling them.

Plantie, just to be clear, I meant the cowboy bit in relation to IT, not to recruiting.

Defo agree on the lying about skill set bit in IT ... I've seen this from the hiring perspective: really hilarious sometimes.

Plantie,
You are right, however your points are not making a better case for you, but a worse one. If there are hundreds of cowboy candidates, 5 minutes of pointed questions on first contact would sort out the chaff from the wheat. This would mean that you could direct your energy better to finding someone who has a chance of being offered a job, rather than have the interviewer say "why did you send them here". Sending a crap candidate to an interview does you more harm than the candidate.
KF.

KF,
Not being funny but I have been giving you a reflection of the industry, not on how I recruit. I didn't become good by sending crap candidates to Managers therefore ruining my reputation.

I'm in no-way trying to promote myself just trying to open your mind a little as it seems to be opinionated.

Assumptions will get you no-where.

I am recruiting at the moment, I rang a couple of agencies to get an ballpark figure for a contract Oracle DBA, the feeding frenzy has begun, I rang two companies for advice and have had 4 phonecalls already this morning, the people I spoke to were helpful but I have the info now and want to go back to sleep.

I do feel sorry for a lot of the contractors out there that tasted the high-life in 97,98,99 on 100k plus, how they must suffer on 40-60k, my heart bleeds to listen to them moaning about IR35. Get real, 100k for a computer programmer !