GGR 2.5 short block - what's the catch?
 

Not being an engine builder but thinking about a new engine fairly soon, what's the catch with the 2.5 litre short blocks GGR are knocking out on ebay for £1250?

From the sounds of it, they're supplying the complete block c/w pistons, crank etc and it seems to me that you could simply swap your 2.0 heads and ancillaries onto the 2.5 block, and the job's done. It can't be THAT straightforward can it? First thing that springs to mind is how do you get it running? Surely a 2.0 ECU won't work, and can something like an Apexi Power FC be loaded up with a safe 2.5 map as a starting point?

Now obviously, if I was swapping the heads and ancillaries over onto the 2.5 block, anything that needed refurbing would be done, but I'm just not sure if this seems too good to be true - a short block for 1250, a bit of a refurb on the head and a couple of gaskets, maybe a new oil pump...it's not going to add up to a lot, then whatever the labour would be to build the complete engine and drop it in.

SO back to the original question - what's the catch? If I can do the job for £2500 that sounds like good value for a 2.5 lump that'll run for another 100k miles with no messing about with different turbo/exhaust/ancillaries.

Am I missing something?

There isn't really a catch, if all you want is sensible power figures, then you should be able to simply rebuild your motor around the 2.5 block, the thing is that people tend to get greedy as soon as they have a 2.5.... it'd make a nice motor with the right set up... been done lots of times by people on here now....

Don't know about Ecutek on later models but Apexi works great on a pre '98 with 2.5L :D You need to ask about other supporting mods, injectors, fuel pump & reg., etc. Extra torque makes it a lovely car to drive on the road. What you waiting for? :)

LOL, waiting for someone to wake me up and tell me I was dreaming that I could do a 2.5 litre conversion for under £2500...

So if I get the short block and head gaskets bought, get the engine built refurbing my existing 2.0 WRX heads and ancillaries if necessary, then drop the whole lot into the engine bay, the question is: Will it start and run using the normal pre '98 ECU map, injectors, fuel pump etc? Because otherwise it's kind of a chicken and egg situation - can't start the car until I've got the right ECU map, and can't get the ECU mapped until I've got the car started.

I guess what I want to know is what is the basic 'poor-mans spec' 2.5 litre conversion? Yes it would be great to run whacking great injectors, bigger fuel pump, ported and polished head and manifold, and a turbo the size of a football, but the bottom line is - can it be got running on a standard ECU and then mapped up on a Power FC a couple of weeks down the line still using all standard 2.0 components?

And what sort of power / torque would be expected mapping for 98-100 octane fuel plus the existing TD04, H&S uppipe and centre, GGR sports cat downpipe and oil breathing going through a catch tank? 300bhp would be nice.

WAKE UP!!!! td04 pmsl just cause the block is cheap doesnt mean everything else to support it is !!! if your just purely gonna change a working bottom end for the 2.5ltr lump and think your car will be great, IMHO the money would be better spend improving your 2ltr

Yes, it is possible to do the 2.5 on a shoe string but IMO the cost will go up. You may find that the turbo isn't man enough for the job and once you start changing stuff it won't stop.

Listen to Steve or you'll be into many £000's before you know it.

Have you checked out the insurance yet?

F

i heard a rumour the ggr500 ( which is not !) has been put back to standard because it keeps blowing head gaskets

Just done the 2.5 conversion.

You will need:

New gaskets - all exhaust and 1.6mm 2.5l head gaskets, inlet manifold, rocker covers etc
oil pump
water pump
a bung for the extra breather
cam belt and possibly new tensioner
oil
oil filter
coolant
water cross pipe seals
I also put in uprated engine mounts

That little lot came to about £500, you could do it cheaper by re-using gaskets/pumps but I didn't.

The car will run on the closed loop map but I'd only use it to get to the mapper off boost.

If you have a TD04 then factor in a TD05 FE too

Of course it has :rolleyes:

It blows headgaskets so a company like GGR are just going to throw their hands up and say we give in?

"I don't fink so..."

BTW a 2.5 on a pre 96 car is spot on. TD05 already and it just has a very responsive 300/300 if thats all what you want.

Can remap standard ECU though power fc is better. 2.0 ecu is fine for running in as long as you keep it off boost.

Make sure you have the water cross pipe from a MY97/8 if doing this on a <96

I think reading this thread is going to cost me £1250 (+ extras) ;)

Dont forget to do it properly you need to factor in costs for having the 2.0 litre head combustion chambers reshaped to suit the larger bore, you could always skip this part and budget for another rebuild around 10,000 miles when the headgaskets go ;)

So all in all your looking at....

£1250 block
£500 in gaskets and other bits
£xxx combustion chamber mods
£xxx fuel pressure reg or bigger injectors
£xxx ECU to run it properly
£xxx for a bigger turbo than your TD04
£xxx labour to remove, strip, rebuild and replace engine
£xxx upgraded clutch to handle the extra torque
£xxx potential gearbox upgrade with torque at around 350 ft/lbs

and on and on and on.....

And if your going to keep it around 300 / 300 dont bother, the money would be better spent on the 2 litre engine.

Conrad

and the insurance hike....

my last insurance company wanted to DOUBLE the premium if changing the engine capacity to 2500.

Did we mention brakes and suspension?

Cosworth do bespoke 2.5 heads for £2.4k IIRC. All the right bits and porting to match!

F

Insurance wasn't a problem for me, well I had to change company, but the premium was the same after ringing around.

Always best to check beforehand though!

I had the 2.5 Engine, Gaskets, 20G Turbo, Headers and fuel pump all ready for a new UK car.


and then bought a modded JDM :rolleyes:

such is life..

a company like ggr never been on rollers how do they know its got 500bhp or how many twats bought conversion thinking it did well worth 20 grand i dont think

I've seen their car on power Engineerings rollers with my own eyes...........Alan..

LOL what have I started here?

OK first off, I should have mentioned - my 2.0 WRX's lump (with 110k miles on it) has just bust its crankshaft oil seal, the idle's been all over the shop lately and number 3 piston is slapping away merrily, so everything's coming out anyway. In other words, I'm not binning a perfectly good 2.0 just for the sake of having 2.5. It seemed a straight choice between rebuilding the 2.0 or grabbing a cheap 2.5 short block and reusing the 2.0 ancillaries and at the price of the 2.5 it was like getting 500cc for free, which couldn't be bad.

Seems to me that even if the 2.5 DOES need the fuelling, mapping, combustion chambers and turbo sorted out to run it properly, £1250 is still cheap for a built-up short block.

Now the thing is, if I'm having to get a 2.0 rebuild done anyway, once it's built and run in will 300bhp be simply a matter of getting a Power FC in and mapping it up? If I can stick with the TD04 until that eventually dies, that would save a lot of bother. What's the most I can hope for with a TD04, Power FC, 2.0 WRX lump and H&S/GGR exhaust (headers are still standard though)?

Cheers!

I am in a similar position, 145k miles and slappy pistons only to add to my 2.0 L probs the head gaskets have gone also, I looked at putting in a standard US Sti 2.5L short engine, as I already have the uprated fuel system and a VF22 turbo which will be good enough for reasonable power, but knowing what will happen in 12 months or so I will be looking for more !! and as the standard 2.5L pistons are apparently a weak link with high boost/power setup's, I have opted for a 2.5L short motor from www.crawfordperformance.com with the fitting kit which comes to around £1700. There will be some import duties to pay ontop of course :mad: . This will have forged pistons and rods, so by spending the extra bit now over the £1300 standard engine, I can safely put bigger turbo/injectors later on for more power.

Bruce what does the fitting kit contain then?

Heres the link to the fitting kit http://www.crawfordperformance.com/p...nfo.cgi?id=152

Did that work out any cheaper than buying it all from the UK, is that a moded oil pump or standard.


----------------------------sorry to hijack, last question i promise---------------

From my calculations, the cheapest UK supplied 2.5l short engine was around £1400, forged pistons and rods for a 2L was about £900 so more for 2.5, head gaskets £100 per pair, my rcm oil pump cost £170 a few years back when I bought it, the kit includes a new standard sti pump though. So uk supplied comes to around £2600, so yes it is cheaper.

How many maps can you run on an Apexi unit, i have been told that the 2.5's can run hot so can you have a full bhp map and then a daily drive or even a long journey map ???

How many can you have with the Apexi unit ??

Minty.

Good question. When I eventually get a Power FC in, I'll want a normal unleaded map for everyday commuting and long journeys, and a 99-100 octane map for performance.

You can't have different maps, but you can map for max HP at a safe AFR on a certain octane, then you can choose from 4 different boost settings.

So for example max HP at 1.4 bar, then you can also run 1.2, 1.0 and 0.8 for the wife, lol