M3 Vs GTR34 V-Spec
 

Right I'm thinking about buying a decent 2nd hand sports coupe for about the £30k mark in the next month or so.

I think it will be out of these two models and I can get decent examples of each within my budget. I know that the Skyline will be slightly older as the newer ones go for £35-60k but I can still get an early GTR34 for £30Kish.

I like both, my heart's saying Skyline wheras the head's saying Beemer.

What do you reckon?

never driven a skyline,
my m3 is more fun to drive than my dads 996 carrera 4
sideways with a lot less effort and just as fast
i would go for rwd over 4wd everytime

To drive everyday and be able to use the performance at any gear, go for the M3.

Typical Japanese, heavyweight, 4WD, turbo charged 2.6 litre cars are pretty gutless on the street so you would normally use lower gears in most occasions to get going.

I take it you've never seen one, let alone driven one.

Standard R34 Skyline weighs 1450kg.. BMW M3 weighs 1542Kg (even a UK-spec R34 weighs 1540Kg).. so heavyweight are they ?

4WD ? Well, not strictly..

2.6 TWIN Turbo kicking out 400bhp is pretty gutless is it ? What does that make a 330 bhp M3 ?

Servicing issues aside (there aren't many places in the UK to have them services) I'd take an R34 Skyline ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

In fact, if they still made them, or I could get it serviced locally, I'd have at least one in my driveway right now.

Here's a picture of my overweight gutless R34..

http://195.60.14.69/picdir/skyline/b...p_DSC_4220.JPG

This is very easy, DavidBrown.

The term "Gutless" needs to be defined to you turboheads...

At 30 Mph, shift to 4th (or 5th if you feel brave) and apply max gas on a standard GT-R Skyline. The car will struggle and the turbos will take a while to spool. The M3 will have no problems - even if it weighed more. But that extra weight comes from fancy luxuries that Skylines lacks. The M3 has more usable AND responsive power at ANY gear, unlike turbocharged cars. Sorry. I've driven and modified Turbocharged cars to know this.

I'm not interested in how much power it can pull off on a dyno. In REALITY, 400 HP (which is not standard by the way) will only be as effective as 360 HP in a natural aspirated car. This is excluding the power losses of full time or part time 4WD.

So your 400 gross HP will only be as useful as something around as 300 HP net when you count in turbo lag and 4WD powerlosses.

1450 KG is still a very heavy car. Period. Especially in a car that has delayed power delivery.

I like turbocharged cars, I've driven plenty of them and owned and been passenger in a few. But I take usable, responsive power delivery from a car (even if it was heavier a touch) than *any* "charged" car.

"400 HP (which is not standard by the way) will only be as effective as 360 HP in a natural aspirated car"

Eh??? So....... Turbo cars don't have much more torque than N/A cars across the bottom 2/3 of the rev range? Sorry... must be mistaken then.

fwiw... a 300hp turbo will piss on a 300hp n/a... simply down the fact it's generating more power over a wider range of revs. Area under the graph and all that.

Bri

I'm no turbo-head, in fact my car is normally aspirated 400bhp.. I just read your "pub talk" response and felt you needed correcting.

Skyline turbos spool up pretty fast.. actually.

Errr. right.. OK.. whatever you say. I think you need to find a Skyline owner.. and let him give you a passenger ride.. THEN you will have an opinion worth something.

All you've said is a Skyline is turbo charged, therefore there's a delay in spooling up therefore it's a slower car overall.. completely ignoring the situation where the turbos are already spooled up as they would be in any spirited driving.

As for this:

"So your 400 gross HP will only be as useful as something around as 300 HP net when you count in turbo lag and 4WD powerlosses"

The turbos are on full boost by about say 3krpm, and if you're blatting along, especially in a Skyline with it's revvy I6 engine, you wont be below 3k.

"In the real world" I doubt you'll ever notice any turbo lag on them (they're twin turbo for this reason aswell).

I agree with your comments regarding power, lag, etc. But despite this, I still prefer the turbo experience... don't know why, just always loved cars with turbos.

Having recently tested a new M3 then got back in my evo VII for the drive home, I still think turbos are better. The M3 felt too smooth and effortless...the evo has more of an urgency about it that makes you work a bit more and (for me) makes the driving experience more intense and enjoyable.

Evo is not as usable "day-to-day" and if I did more miles I would go down the m3 route I think.

With a turbocharged engine, you need power to make power. The torque curve on a natural aspirated car (even if it has less torque) arrives INSTANTLY. While the torque of a turbocar that you get on a rolling road or engine dyno needs time for it to arrive. Picture the situation where the drivers of the NA car and turbocar both bang open the throttle, all the "torque" available at the RPM will be used instantly, on the other hand the turbocar will delay and then progressively apply torque - only then, will the turbocharged car will pull as hard as an na. But needs more time to do it.

This effect is like allowing an equally powerful and quick car to have a head start. While you wait a few split seconds later before you apply the throttle.

The eventual kick from the turbo(s) reaching full boost is great fun, but if I need the best performance "on demand", I'd settle for natural aspirated. :)

Why did you mention a 400 HP natural aspirated car as an arguement to support a turbocharged car? No, this isn't pub talk. This is experience from working and racing turbocharged and natural aspirated cars.

Spooling "pretty fast" is still spooling. And spooling is STILL LAG. Even if it takes 0.5 seconds to reach max boost, that is 0.5 seconds wasted against a natural aspirated car.

Skyline GT-Rs are not special exceptions with turbocharged cars. They do not have zero turbo lag, and they can't pull away instantly in any gear, while an M3 effortlessly does. There will always be a noticable period of time that a turbo car does *nothing* and then does all that it can after.


This is where turboheads are naive. In a competitive race, or to get the best possible times, NO ONE and NO REGULATION will to give you concession for your turbo to spool.

Oh my goodness.

"In a competitive race, or to get the best possible times, NO ONE and NO REGULATION will to give you concession for your turbo to spool."

So... lapping a circuit, you have to stop at each corner and move away from rest.... and each pull away isn't allowed to have more then 3K revs? Give me a break.

Around a circuit, up a drag strip, around Essex.... if you're in the correct gear, turbo lag isn't an issue.

By the way, none of my cars are turbocharged or supercharged... although I do have a 100bhp/litre N/A Duratec and a 360hp/360lb.ft V8, so I'm no turbohead either, I just realise the mid range torque benefits they have.

I didn't mention my N/A car to support my turbocharged argument, I mentioned to because I resented being called a "turbohead".

So by that argument an F40 is slower than an M3 ? Since the F40 has to spool up ?

but you are still forgetting its still a 2.6 engine and will have plenty of power even before the turbo kicks in! on a race track skyline wins, on the road skyline still wins! im afraid the bmw is a bit too common so if you like car which cannot be easily upgraded to give mega power or be stuck to limited power like the bmw. yes you can turbo and supercharge the bmw but it will effect the longevity of the engine but the same amount on a skylne you wouldnt even have to change the internals. bmw is more of the old mans cruise but the skyline is the racer

just thought i would give my 2p

had to reply on this one guys its a tough choice between skyline and m3 they are both great cars i owned an r33 gtr vspec and have driven a freinds m3 and m5. they all have their own advantage the M3 is so much fun being rwd easy to drift and super quick in a straight line the skyline on the other hand is equally fun because you can abuse it so badly and corner at speeds sideways bmw drivers can only dream of. Ok you have to really push a good skyline to get it out of shape i won't say it can't be done because it can i know.. both cars are limited to around the same 155 mph but the skyline will always have the jump on the bmw because of its efficent 4wd system. But they are both good cars.If it was my decision it would be the skyline but only because i've owned one before. :)

Had a deposit down on an M3, drove a GTR, cancelled my order for the BMW :D
I've had 2 GTR's since, last one being the best car I've ever owned.

Don't listen to advice from anyone who hasn't had first hand experience on both cars - it'll be pub talk bollox. Listen to uncle Cem and uncle David.

Cem

WHAT! I think you are missing the point of this forum ;)

This is what you said.

"2.6 TWIN Turbo kicking out 400bhp is pretty gutless is it ? What does that make a 330 bhp M3 ?"

Then you said:

"I'm no turbo-head, in fact my car is normally aspirated 400bhp.. I just read your "pub talk" response and felt you needed correcting."

So WHAT 400 HP car "in fact" do you have then? Turbocharged or NA??? You obviously had to let me know you had a 400 HP car of some sort to bring substance to your weak arguements.

Uh.....This is easy. The F40 is quicker from the extra 140+ HP, extra torque and is 400 KG lighter, AND 3.5 litres to boot. The massive power-to-weight offsets any delay from turbo lag.

So, on that explanation, my posts aren't simply just "arguements", they are facts gained from experience and technical information. Sorry, I'm done with you now.

Uh...there's more to it than RPM to remain on boost.

Remember, you only get full boost a soon as 3000 RPM IF at W.O.T and IF given enough time for it to build up. This means, at 2000 RPM, you boot it, but that turbo will not reach peak boost by 3000 RPM because you only have 1000 RPM (and not much time) to build that boost.

There are not many corners that can be taken at WOT, unless you want severe power oversteer, then be my guest. You want progressive power related to throttle position, a turbocharged car simply cannot do that with its switch-style power delivery.

What torque/power curve that you see on a dyno rolling road printout is non-existent in the real world, be this on the street or race track.

When 0.05 (turbolag is longer than that) seconds makes the world of difference, turbolag IS an issue. You obviously havent seen how competitive it is in the states between turbocharged Supras and Mustangs have you now? The differences are in the few hundreths of a second to determine a winner.

So what is "pub talk" about the fact that a GT-R willl not deliver the rated power without shifting down several gears, as opposed to the M3??

You going to refute me on this or are you just going to dream about your Do-Luck body kit on your imaginary Skyline?

who cares
i want to have fun in a car i find that you can have more fun in a rwd car without having to be really pushing it ,i want to keep my licence
if things carry on like the govt want it will be illegal to drive anything with more than ioo bhp anyway
if that happened i would buy a mk1 escort, slow as anything but great fun to drive

enjoy whichever car you pick mate

as i said before i owned a skyline vspec2 gtr33 it was only mildly tuned and gave 530bhp at its wheels till some thieving chav scum nicked it and wrapped it round a tree (hope the little cnut died in it) but it could easily hold off freinds 6 and 900 bikes round the lanes so there ain't no way in hell no car is keeping with it the HICAS system and 4WD holds it to the road like its on rails and after fitting a fully adjustable coil over set up all round with 19's it was even better if you drive enthusiasticly go for the skyine as it will piss over any bmw unless its one of the ALPINA M's and besides tuning a skyline is not as exspensive as people reckon....
cars like the skyline, evo's , scoobs and other fast jap stuff are designed to have the absolute bollox thrashed out of them so have fun.

Ha ha.
 

If you knew anything about Cem ( and its quite obvious you dont, so may I suggest you check out www.gtr.co.uk) you'll know that the words dream and imaginary when talking skylines to the man are laughable. I believe hes had 3, a GTR33, GTR 34 V-spec and an R34 NUR.

So, I suggest you stick to your "facts" and stop making yourself look stupid by abusing people you do not know.

As to the point of the original post. Go for the Skyline everytime.
In general, people see a M3 and think "BMW ****" See a Skyline and it "Wow, top motor"

i totally agree there ;)

it must be where the following joke stems from


whats the difference between a porcupine and a bmw ??

the bmw has the pricks on the inside



sorry if i offended anyone couldn't resist it
and yes i have owned a bmw
a alpina m5 1982 model and it was great till it blew up :(

ok, whatever floats you boat, Showboating on mini-roundabouts is ok, but you can't beat the real thing :).

on the subject of skylines i used to work for a car dealer in east london that imported jap cars direct we got an r32gtr tuned to 860bhp had all the reciepts and dyno printouts too and belive me not even god himself would have caught that thing whoever had it must have got a HKS catolouge and bought everything in it even had a custom gearbox it was sold for 27,000 pounds and belive me it would have given any ferrari or lambo a run for its money it could spin all 4 wheels in the first 2 gears :D :D DAMN i wish i could have bought that........

It all comes down to every individual,what they want.

If performance is most important then a Skyline is the one.It dosent matter about lag or loss through transmission (it is actually 2wd untill the power is needed at the front wheels) and changing your driving style will compensate for any drawbacks of a turbo car.

However if its build quality, luxury,and practicality,the a BMW M3 is a touch ahead.Besides the performance, handling and power delivery are better as an all round every day car.

The skyline is my favourite and indeed most of todays generation,but if acceptance amongst the majority of society is important then an M3 is the one.
You could turn up in a V spec to a formal gathering and some people may think boy racer,or wow!.
Turn up in an M3 and you probably wont get as many people crowding round(perhaps they are thinking t055er),but most will think 'This guy must be doing well for himself'.No one can knock a beemer,but the skyline is still a Datsun in many peoples eyes(they do need to open them)

This is all IMO of course, so no offence intended.

Why not buy both? (joke)

I have owned an M3 and a 401bhp (dyno'd ) Skyline R34 Vspec. They were both my one and only everyday car when I owned them. Both marvellous cars, but absolutely no comparison in out and out performance in ALL conditions where the skyline was just phenomenal and yet totally reliable and tractible. I now have a Carrera 4 which I am about to sell in favour of a Twin Turbo Porsche because I miss the sheer power of the skyline. The M3 did not come close at higher speeds and was not as fun to drive fast. It di obviously have far superior build quality.