Dear all,

I've read a few reviews now that seem to rate handling of the RB5 (non-prodrived) model BETTER than a std MY99. Notably, in EVOs wet weather 'handling' test they rated it above the MY99 and STI - why do you think this is???

Anyone with any thought?

Cheers

Andy

I seem to remember that the RB5 they used was a Prodrive one (mag not at work so can't check)

Paul

The RB5 tested by EVO [ according to the text] was on standard MY99 suspension [but had the Prodrive performance pack] , so the only difference was it had 17" wheels and P-zero tyres. Strangely a few posts by people who have P-zero's dont rate them particularly highly in the wet.

I had P-Zero (Asymetricos) on my FIAT Coupe Turbo. Excellent in the dry, understeared like a pig in the wet. I've never personally rated Pirelli's in the wet, but I guess it's just a matter of personal preference and confidence.

I was also under the impression that the EVO RB5 only had PPP, not the suspension upgrade - so was it just the 17" wheels that made it better than the STi? Come-on all you STi owners..a bog standard RB5 surely can't be better! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Andy

Was the MY99 still running with the OEM Bridgestone Potenzas ?

If so that could explain it. I think they are naff and cant wait until I've shredded them.

...seems to be getting into a tyre discussion....

I guess I started this thread to question if the RB5 had different suspension components or geometry from a std MY99. All indications would be that the RB5 is identical to a MY99 in this respect - would anyone with knowledge of the two beg to differ??

If this is the case it MUST be either wheel-size, tyres or the combination of the two.

But in the dry would you expect an STi to handle better than an RB5?
How different are the stock STi 5 suspension components from a std MY99?

Loads of questions...any thoughts people?

Cheers

Andy

As far as I know, the only difference between the RB5 chassis and the standard UK '99 Turbo chassis is that the RB5 comes with 7x17" wheel and 205/45x17" P-Zero tyres (as opposed to 16" Bridgestones), and that it has a fixed rear bulkhead (i.e. a solid panel behind the rear seats).

Could these make such a big difference?

In tests like these did the testers check that all car's suspension geometry was set to manufacturer's recommended settings? As they didn't all come from IM (for obvious reasons!) this could be an important factor!

BTW, my 17" P-Zeroes are fine in the dry, and I haven't had any bad experiences in the wet yet, although other tyres may be even better!

Andy.

I have an RB5 prodrive, and when I picked it up I thought the suspension was stiffer than my previous MY98 5 door (which I had just stepped out of after a year and 30,000 miles), and I thought in particular it rolled less in the corners (so I am not sure whether the tyres are the only handling factor). It tended also to crash down pot holes etc, implying that the damper settings might have been stiffer rather than the spring rates.

However I swapped the suspension for Pete Croney's Leda stuff after about a week of having the car and now there is no question of the cars superior handling qualities to any standard car imported or otherwise (and it doesn't crash down pot holes either):-).

The P Zero's aren't bad in the wet, they are just nowhere as good as the S O2's. In the dry I find them fine (a bit soft maybe).

Incidentially none of the cars in the September Evo mag were on S 02s

Steve

Std STi tyres are complete crap. I've now changed mine to 17" Toyos - difference in wet is amazing.

Suspension was stiffened on MY99 cars from the MY 98's as standard. With regards to wet weather handling [and the EVO test]
tyres are going to make a huge difference. Saying that, the testalso took in real-life road conditions , wet and dry. It would have been an interesting experiment to put the RB5's wheeels/tyre combination on the standard MY99 for a blast round MIRA and see the differences if any. Anyone know if the RB5 had Prodrive geometry settings?

AndyP....

In relation to your topic... Standard RB5's are the same as 99MY.. Its just cosmetic changes (like all the other limited edition ones).

The chasis/suspension/geometry should be the same. But I know in other mags certain demo cars they have tested haven't been standard, but the mag didnt know/didnt bother to mention it.

The only time a RB5 will be different is if its got the Prodrive handling pack fitted or after market suspension/geometry changes.

Hope this helps

J.

ps - Andyp.. the STI5 has different shocks and springs... Alot of people believe the harder the spring the better it handles, this isnt the case. You have to get the right balance between hardness, rebound and damping... Hence why Leda C is real good (fully adjustable). The STi setup is too hard for UK roads (IMHO)

[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 01-10-1999).]

Steve,

was it LEDA B or C? (what happend to A? http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif)

Andy

J,

take your point about suspension being too hard. I know a guy who's got a 911 Carrera with sport suspension mods. Very hard suspension, little body lean, hurts your kidneys - you know what I mean?
He also recently aquired a 328 GTS(B??, dunno, but it's nice and red and I want it!) but this is a completely different kettle of fish. Really compliant suspension, pretty smooth ride - pisses all over the Porsche!

Back to Scoobies - if I'm after the best road setup what should I go for? I was thinking that Prodrive was the one to go for - anyone disagree?

Andy

PS. J. didn't you change your STi's spring and dampers? What did you go for and why?

AndyP...

I have/will have Leda C, with Powerflex bushes, Anti Lift kit, Uprated Control arm links and bushes.... contemplating rose joints

J.

AndyP

In answer to you question AndyP, I am running the Leda C. I think you've got to have an adjustable set up. Not only to tune to your own driving style but because you can make it more comfortable to drive than the fixed Prodrive set up on a day to day basis and not compromise performance. The Prodrive set up is much more prone to understeer where as the Scoobysport Leda set up is much more neutral.

For example I run the settings very low on the road (5 back 6 front out of 24 settings) for all uses and tend not to change them unless on a track day. Even at these settings awesome on road performance is available and really has to be driven to be believed wet or dry.

Some of the performance advantages I think over the standard car include:

1. An extra half turn or so of the steering wheel is available before understeer sets in

2. The back end takes some real aggression to unstick

3. 100% braking stability in all situations.

4. Much more progressive on the limit, and won't snap whatever you do.

5. The ride is much more pliant and the car doesn't crash down pot holes

6. Less tyre wear on the front edges.

So basically enter a blind bumpy off camber corner on a damp road at a speed which convinces you that you're going to have an accident, and then mid corner the road tightens and you have to swerve to miss a stray sheep and there's a lorry hurtling towards you slightly on your side of the road. You'll make it.

Steve

Hi..

I agree about having adjustable suspension.. and how its far better...

But the stuff about being neutral, understeer and oversteer is alittle confusing.... it all depends on how you want the car setting up... you can increase under/oversteer on standard suspension by altering the geometry.... Yes having adjustable ride height, rebound and damping is good... and allows you to fully tailor the handling to your needs....

But price must also come into the equation... would you notice the difference between B and C ? or even prodrive ? Will you be taking the car to those extremes ?

You need to decide what you expect and want from the cars handling ? Just everyday driving to and from work ? if so, fit the cheap prodrive option...heavy track use...crazy cornering (hi Steph)... then C..and have it custom set to your driving style... This will take a while...dont expect it perfect the first time you drive it.

Am I talking crap ? perhaps... I normally do...

J.

Firefox

I hear what you say about understeer/oversteer neutrality etc, and changing the standard car geometry to achieve. However you will never come close to achieving the sort of balance you can when you are altering spring rates, ride heights and damper settings (leaving aside roll bars bushes etc) because they all play a far more significant roll than pure geometry settings.

Geometry settings will not for example stop the car rolling less in a corner, will not stop one of the back tyres unloading on the limit and snapping back at you, will not let you drift the car with no fear at 80mph through the apex of the corner, will not allow you to brake hard on corners without loosing composure. You also have the option of fitting slicks on track days and making total use of the suspension setup.

Cost obviously is an issue, but the Leda option C is not much more expensive than the prodrive stuff. Also you can phone up Pete Croney or Leda anytime you like and you get proper advice from real enthusiasts about the suspension. Pete is always there at track days to offer advice (Mike Wood from Prodrive isn't and even if he was you wouldn't be able to change anything).

Taking car to extremes...Leda B/C/prodrive. You take cars to extremes on track days. I've spun my car on 2 of the 3 track days I've been to, but never on the road. Which is better? Autocar gave the Prodrive car a lesser score than the standard car in their road test last year. There is no way that that conclusion would be made with the Leda suspension in my opinion.

Car set up time? The car is set up from day one for fast road use. If you never changed it, it wouldn't matter because the car handles so fantastically. If you feel capable of changing the set up the option is there, but I agree that can take months to get right but it is good fun experimenting.

Ozz

When I picked my car up from the garage it understeered just like the standard car, but I felt it generally had much more cornering grip and understeered less accelerating out of corners. Even so I wanted a car totally different than the last one, and I can say without doubt when I had the scoobysport Leda suspension fitted I was stunned at the extra performance, and strangely I found the ride better (even though it is much stiffer). I can travel down roads without thinking about at 20/30mph faster than I would dare in the old car. That's the proof enough for me. I also think the P zero's aren't much cop in the wet, but they are good enough.

Steve

Hi Oz,

I've a standard RB5 and as far as I can tell it feels just like a standard MY99 car apart from the larger wheels and matching tyres. Everyting else is purely cosmetic apart from the Quickshift of course.

The WR Sport RB5 has the ECU remap, mid and back exhaust upgrade, bigger rear spoiler and upgrade intercooler piping.

I drove my Dealers demo car which as it happened, had over £10K worth of Prodrive goodies fitted.

My RB5 doesn't feel as though it has as much, especially cornering in the wet. From a standing start, I can't tell the difference, but the RB5 feels like it understeers and slides a lot more than a car with the Prodrive mods.

Personally, I'd put the difference in handling down to the P-Zero tyres and suspension but I haven't change the geometry yet to see if this helps with understeer.

Just a thought - don't Prodrive fit P-Zeros as part of one of their upgrade packs anyway ??

If so, then either I've a duff set of tyres or the suspension/geometry does make a BIG difference http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/smile.gif

I'm in a personal dilema at the moment - do I upgrade to the WR Sport pack and spend £2.5K for a slightly faster car OR go down the ScoobySport / Leda setup for far less money.

Steve Proctor - maybe you could help Steve, especially if you immediately replaced the suspension for the Leda C setup.

Stefan

Steve - sorry I spelt your surname wrong.

Well if the EVO test is to be believed, the only thing all you MY99ers need to do is fit 17inch wheels, and you'll have the best handling car on the planet!!! Forget expensive fripperies like LEDA or Prodrive suspension......
Now that I have safely removed my tongue from within my cheek, I might add that IMHO, aftermarket suspension makes a big difference to handling (for the better) - No one buys big wheels to improve handling.

The other way to make your car the best handling car in the world is to get prodrie to spend 2 days setting up the geometry to the best setup for the wet!

Which is what happened to the car the EVO tested which is why it was classed as being so far ahead of the standard car along with the tyre differences.

Darren

J.

<<contemplating rose joints>>
Don't they tend to *squeak*?

Andy

I seem to remember reading that the RB5 doesn't have split/fold rear seats, and therefore has a stiffer rear-end. This apparently would improve handling slightly.

Stef.

AndyP...

Rose joints can squeak.... but depends on the material they are made of http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

J.

ps - Got your suspension/bars yet ?

Jay - Sniffing them out as we speak!

They guy has the AR and Prodrive suspension currently fitted his old 5 door at the moment - don't anticipate any problems fitting to a 4 door.

I'm a little vague on excactly what components I should be expecting with the Prodrive Kit - I guess it's just 4 Eibach springs and 4 Blistein dampers. Anyone else got experience with Prodrive suspension?

As ever I'm chocker this week at work, so I'll probably sort it out this week but won't pick them up for a little while.

I'll be in touch! http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif

Andy

Hi Andyp..

Yep...all you will get is the springs and the shocks...not even new top mounts or bump stops.. have to use the old ones...

I might suggest you get uprated (powerflex) bump stops...

Let me know how it goes..

J.

ps - All the suspension is the same for all the years (within reason)