In response to Anders problems.

Perhaps you all might like to accept that there are two sides to a story and this is the other side.

Anders brought his car to us by trailer with a terminal engine noise. We had converted the car to Phase 1 spec previously, the car had covered 30 000miles and done numerous track days during it’s life.

The noise was obviously a big end.

We told him immediately what it was. We removed the engine that afternoon and stripped it and showed him the next day, the failure.

He questioned the possibility of the problem being caused by the ECU mod. We were concerned that there may have been a connection but once we looked inside the engine we were 100% happy it was nothing to do with detonation or poor mapping. We also showed him the spark plugs (which we perfect, you can see them on page

David,

Thank-you for your response - I'm sure that the majority of BBS members can see that there are two sides to every story....

I think that most people sympathise with Anders and his dead car - regardless of events leading up to the failure.

On a more positive note, is there anything that you can recommend to owners to avoid "oil surge" in the future ?

Is this something which could be experienced on the road (as well as the track) ?

Best Regards,

Gavin


P.S. Would it be a good idea to put a "customer experiences" section on your web site - to show a more representative cross-section of real owners who have had work done by PE ?

[This message has been edited by GavinP (edited 16-11-1999).]

Having worked on racing engines many years ago I notice that oils surge was then quite common hence the idea for dry sumping.. consider a car cornering at speed with oil in a poorly baffled sump all going to one end and the pick up only sucking air...something goes and in this case it was bearing no 3....Nothing whatsoever to do with ECU upgrades.... Holes in pistons ,thats another story...

Dear Anders,
After reading Dave's repy, I must concur with his findings. As I said in all my postings it would obviously be det if the pistons and / or head failed. As these seem to be unmarked (and you have been shown them, so you would have known this all along) it could not have been the chip. Obviously it happend due to the apparant low level of oil. The oil pick up would have sucked air (briefly), the bearings would have run dry (briefly) and thrown the crank out, hence the "death rattle" described by yourself. No wonder you kept all the symptoms and details to yourself.

I am surprised that Dave is being as lenient and understanding as he is, as you have obviously spread the seed of doubt and tarnished their name, when all along you were in possession of ALL the facts, but releasing only a few to get people to jump to conclusions to help you push Dave into a corner (and try and obviously get him to pay for the work). Wasn't very sporting of you.....
Mike Rainbird

thanks for the info dave, if what you say is fact then i have been commenting on completely incorrect info on the other bullitin.
Could you please clarify the baffle arangement on the subaru engine.
On my road cossie i purposely run on road tyres during track day's as this limits the G i can pull in the corners to help protect against oil surge, even with a baffled sump.

My race car 5 litre V8 is dry sumped and my Group A rally car has a proper big wing baffled sump to protect against surge.

I think it is essential people are made awair of the inherent design of the oil feed system on the impreza so that more educated responses can me made and precautions taken.

thanks
john

I have spent some time watching the feed-back on the "chip" up-grades situation with PE and feel I would like to say I also have a 22b and a wrx ra which have been to PE for Up-grades and both are greatly improved over standard.
The 22b is producing some of the best hp figs I've seen for these cars and has been on the limiter at Donnington twice in september flat out in fourth all day, in addition to this it has been up to 165mph and held there for a few miles.....yes it was me at Max Power Live up against a WRC Escort.....my 22b has done an additional 2500mls after having been "chipped" at PE without any problems, as for my WRX it revs out in fifth(low ratio box) is running 313hp and again no probs ,no track work yet but we will see.....
One point not mentioned by anyone yet is "Track Days"....great fun I love them and as both Pete and Anders will confirm I do like to test my Scoobies!!!! but let us not forget if you were to race in a series for a season you would say cover 8 to 10 meets at say 8 laps average lap distance say 1.5mls you would proberly cover a hundred to a hundred fifty miles in a single season...I have done nearly the same in a single track day...(open pit lane etc) the point beening the cars we use regularly do five or more track days a year....the same in theroy as five full race seasons I belive most race cars are re-built once a season and checked half way through each and "maintained" to a high stanard, this could at times contribute to why cars wear and fail?
I have all ways found the work at PE to be to my likings and the mods to my cars reliable I will only speak as I find and will continue to use PE until this either changes or some one has a better product to offer me, so thanks David and PE staff I am a happy customer.
PS I had a sti 4 which "SCUBIDU MOTORSPORT" (now no longer trading) chipped it blew after 300ish mls so I can see how soul destroying these things can be so "chin up" folks after all we still have our health.....

RTB,

You obviously give your cars a serious hammering, on the road, and on the track.

Can you let us know what mod's you've done, to prevent the oil surge problems. It's a big concern to all of us who go on track days.

Mark.

[This message has been edited by R19KET (edited 17-11-1999).]

When I last had my oil changed, only 4 litres were put in as apparently filling it can cause oil to get sucked up somewhere (technical description). This means that it only just registers on the dip stick.

Is this true or should the oil always be filled right to the line ?

David P,

thanks for your honest reply. We must all make sure we remember the power of this forum. I am guessing that the reason some people do under fill the oil is precisely due to this oil surge i.e. lower oil, less surge, no contamination, ?????

robski

David

I thank you for your total honesty in this situation. You are seen by many as being one of the good guys, This also goes for Steve / older oriental women loving Mervyn and the other chap who's name escapes me.

The question im dying to know the answer to is this... Why then was Anders so peed off?

Also, who shot J.F.K and where is Lord Lucan now he's officially dead?

http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/biggrin.gif

NeilR

[This message has been edited by NeilR (edited 17-11-1999).]

RTB,

Could you let us know what caused your STi4 to blow up. You imply that it was due to the SCUBIDOO chip, but don't say what happened.

Mark. (STi4)

What isn't apparent is who serviced the car prior to this?
It's very difficult to remain subjective when sensitive issues arise on this BBS. In my case and many others that I can see.
After now seeing both sides I can't believe that DP appears to have been forced into making this decision - not cheap I'd imagine.
I wonder why Anders hasn't spoken to the company concerned with servicing.

A useful warning too check your fluid levels regularly and before track days perhaps?

All (except DP and other PE ppl!)

When was the last time you all looked at the PE website? I noticed a weird gismo being developed a MONTH ago, called the ACCUSUMP. The pieces fall into place now! This gismo is being designed by PE to alleviate the sump problems Anders and others get with high spec cars. Maybe this was started AFTER Anders' situation, but hats off to PE for proactively designing a solution to stop this.

DP: I'm surprised you didn't point this out http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/wink.gif. Credit where credits due tho'.

On the downside, I find all configuration/testing prices rediculous on the Scoob (not just at PE I might add..). But what do I know? I'm in IT!

pilch

Dear All,
I would like to withdraw myself from this arguement untill all parties provide totally
accurate accounts.

I have been advised that certain people are still not providing us with the whole picture.

Dave, accordingly could we please have pictures of the head and pistons, as I am lead to believe that there WAS evidence of detonation......

The truth is out there (somewhere!).....
Mike Rainbird

I have spoken to Anders who will post a reply this evening as he is nowhere near a computer to respond. He has said he is no engineer, he is a doctor not a mechanic, and sought 5 independant people's opinions before doing or saying anything.

Howdy..

If my memory serves me correct.. the Accusump thingy was designed and marketed a few years back... and it failed to catch on.. It was designed to instantly produce oil pressure when the engine was cranking over...

I'll find the article in one of my mags..

Dave,

By the looks of things, I too went down the wrong avenue based on the info given... if the parts that you say, are perfectly "fine", then it cant be det... and simply a seizure..

J.

I serviced Anders car, as I have always done. The oil was filled to just below the upper dot on the dip stick, as we do with every other car we service.

Subaru Technical Service Bulletin 1-1B-014, dated 16/12/98 makes it perfectly clear that this marker... and not the notch on the side of the dip stick, should be regarded as the maximum.

The process for filling the vehicle with oil is to fill the new oil filter, whilst it is on the bench and fit it to the car. This is always filled from a 1 litre bottle. 4 litres are then poured down the main oil fill spout. At this time, there will be approx 4.2 litres in the car. The minimum marker on the dip stick represents 3.5 litres and the maximum marker represents 4.5 litres. This amount of oil will show as being 3/4 of the way up, between the upper and lower markers. We give the customer the part used 1 litre bottle, so that the oil level can be topped up, if necessary during the period to the next service.

As part of my job, I have been asked to inspect several engines that have suffered identical failures. Apart from Anders car, all of the similarly failed engines I have seen have lost the bearing at the big end on cylinder number 3. All of these other cars, have had some sort of device fitted, which increased the boost, beyond that set by Subaru.

None of these cars were being used in conditions which would have created an oil surge problem and I was in Anders car when it blew. At the time the car was being driven cautiously, as I was showing Anders the lines around the circuit... and it was cold and very wet.



[This message has been edited by Pete Croney (edited 17-11-1999).]

At this stage I think it's best to completely
keep clear of what's happening.
In the end, if it get's sorted and everyone is happy (as is reasonable) that's the main issue.

Pete
In case you may think, I certainly wasn't questioning your standard of service - which is beyond repproach.