Fitting Gruppe S headers and uppipe to a MY00 for TOTB. Despite taking ages over carefully lining everything up and making sure there was no stress on any of the joints, and grinding down the bell housing for clearance, and spacing the uppipe brackets, and using a Ford Transit steel laminated gasket, the thing still blows gently at idle before it has ever turned a wheel [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

The flanges are just not flat, the local engineering place cannto manage to flatten them. I can't imagine how much worse it will get under heat and pressure :rolleyes:

Has ANYONE successfully managed to stop header/uppipe collector gaskets/joints like these leaking at decent boost and EGTs?

Bu66er, just when I thought that these would make a nice new addition. Oh well -"next"!

F
PS hope you get it sorted, should've kept the other ones :rolleyes:

Just another note, I hope that this isn't repeated with all the others on the 2 group buys...

The chap in charge of it will wish he hadn't been born.

F

Well I think they do make a fantastic addition in terms of power gains and noise quietening. Other headers suffer the same, and as far as I know, no one has a long term solution yet. Those that thought they have have then sprung a leak at some point again.

Of the other two sets I know of on c.400 BHP cars, both have had problems.

The only headers I've personally seen that have not been leaking have been on sub 320 BHP cars.

Any help appreciated in sorting this common but seemingly never ending problem.

[Edited by john banks - 7/20/2003 10:34:01 PM]

I've just had mine fitted and have got the same problem! leaking at idle ,hardly any boost! car's going back in to the garage tomorow for them to have another go but I'm not holding out much hope! I've been advised that the turbo should be loose on it's mountings before up-pipe to collector is tightened .I hope somebody out ther can offer a solution!

Len.

The way I solved my leak initially was to file the flanges flat :eek: It took ages !!
Due to the lack of expansion pieces between the RH header tubes and turbo, I think the uppipe joint gets stressed as everything expands.
My uppipe is now NOT bolted to the head or gearbox. The downpipe IS bolted on in the standard 2 places, the turbo is now allowed to 'grow' where it wants !

Andy

So is the problem due to ??????

1: the flanges not being flat on fitment
2: poor gaskets
or
3: warpage once heated
or all the above??

Did those that leak check that the flanges were flat before fitment?? Did they ever seal, or did it take a few miles to leak ?? If a flange isnt flat, which one, or both up-pipe, and manifold flanges?????


Need any answers ASAP, as will be fitting a set in the next couple of days.

Where's it leak? Between header and up-pipe joint? The iON's I tried leaked here until I used exhaust paste...and after that the flexi-joint broke!

Maxim's have never had a problem, but they're a one-piece design. I've a new up-pipe design to try on the iON with the ej25.

Richard

reinforce the flanges I think, weld some 20mm strip around the edges of the flange to make it proper stiff.

Dont forget the back pressure will be putting 60kg tensile loads on the headers.

Paul

JB

My initial leak was due to me not being aware of variance in tolerances of pipework. :rolleyes:

The second leak after ensuring everything was in their right position was so slight you wouldn't really notice, but bugged the hell out of me, cause i knew it was there. You couldn't hear it or feel any change in power but if you put your finger at the flange, you could just tell there was the slightest of gas leakage.

At that point, i wanted to try a different type of gasket which turned out to be a bit of a failure ( actually, it was c**p!):rolleyes: but now have a solution to my needs and am unconcerned about the headers leaking now. :)

Alan :cool:

Stevieturbo

The only issue with them appears to be the collector to up-pipe flange.
Haven't had/seen/heard of any issues with the cyl head flanges or top of up-pipe flanges.

You should bolt the manifold to the cylinder heads, then bolt the up-pipe to the manifold.
The support brackets at the top of the up-pipe should then be modified to sit flush with the flange (where the turbo sits on to).

For the collector to up-pipe, you should use a good *metal* gasket for sealing along with a good quality assembly paste. (Not repair paste). The reason for the paste is because of the size of the flanges at the collector/up-pipe. IMO, the flange should be a 3 bolt flange rather than the present two, but... ya gotta p** with the p***k ya got!! ;)

Alan :cool:

Alan,

What is your solution? I'm sure that we would all like to know.

Here is a reply from Max at Gruppe-s with regard to my leaking collector to uppipe problem....
"Hi Len,
Actually yes... I'm suprised your installers did not leave any slack in the uppipe to turbine studs before tightening the manifold to uppipe joint... this is VERY important in getting a good seal. The proper may (ableit very tedious) to install the uppipe is similar to the way you would bolt on a wheel or tighten down a head onto a block... you have to proceed in a "star" or "criss-cross" type pattern. This means you slowly tighten each side alternately slowly tightening down a little at a time until both sides are fully tightened. I hope you can relay this information to the other members so they won't have to deal with any repeated installation frustrations.

Thanks

Max"

Whether this is the answer who knows?

Len.

tried everything mentioned above.

every flange is warped before use on jb's set . where they bolt onto a flat surfaces the gasket seems to work but the collector and up-pipe flanges are both warped and the gasket cannot make up the difference.

just to add they where leaking right from cold start before expansion. I am running one bracket from the turbo flange to the bell housing area,cut to allow one bolt fitting to give a hinge movement.

I will be interested how these fit with standard turbo cars as they seem to make the turbo sit lower and on the phase 2 block, with extra bell housing bolts a grinder was needed to allow the turbo water pipes to clear. the TD05 is definitly larger in this area but I think even TD04 cars would have problems.

Boostman

The original supplied gasket is a single piece (thickness) metal type gasket.

The flanges on my set were *pretty* good regards flatness. Not perfect, but reading these posts indicate some have more warpage (is that the right spelling?) than others.

Even if you bolt the collector to up-pipe before bolting on the turbo, you have to make sure you do not stress the up-pipe where the support brackets bolt on to. Hence the need to modify them to suit. It's not a big deal to modify them ( 15 minutes work maximum), but is necessary if you don't want any future grief.

My second gasket was a composite, fabric type material as i thought this type would take up any discrepancy in the flanges flatness issue, but was an absolute nonsense and as soon as boost came on, it went all brittle and blew itself out.

I now have a gasket which is made up in 3 sections similar to some of the gaskets Suabru supply for this area. That and coupled with an assembly paste, i have no issues with exhaust gas leakage.

If you feel there is too much grief with these headers in this respect, I suggest you stick with the manifold section and source a suitable slip jointed up-pipe manufactured with the necesary 60mm lower joint to suit the Gruppe-S headers.

There will be one or two suppliers out there who are capable of supplying the necessary pipework for not a lot of cost.

Hope this helps

Alan :cool:

Sounds like a technical explanation, but it's only 2 bolts.....and if the flanges are flush together before you proceed to tighten...

Alan :rolleyes:

I dont belive an engineering shop cannot flatten the flanges.. a decent suface grinder should be able to do it..

Has anyone had one on a surface plate..

Id weld the flanges together.. fook em.. lets see you leak now..

David

I told jb to weld them on his big engine too, to save fcuking about ;)

I just held a metal ruler across the faces and they all drop slightly at the edges like the weld was warped them . the real problem is the collector to up-pipe flange, as they are both slightly warped you can hold them together and rock them across the centre to bolt holes.

the engine shop said they would struggle to get into the collector side while holding it , they did say the up-pipe could be done . wish I had let them try now :(

If the flanges are warped and the uppipe comes up too short can't you just weld another flange on top of the existing ones, or just do this to the collector flange and get the uppipe flange machined flat.

Andrew...

Just though...this would move the top of the uppipe further back more than upwards...

Alan,

Who are the suppliers you mention? I think that this might be the better solution, do you think that these will seal that much better?

Thanks for the advice so far,
Len.

Len

Do you mean the up-pipe or the gaskets?

If up-pipe, I believe Mark Aigin should be able to source a slip jointed up-pipe. You would need to ask him if his supplier can change the lower flange to suit the Gruppe-S manifold diameter, though i can't see this being an issue to the manufacturer.

Personally, I still can't see the big deal over the leak issue if you take into account what has been written when you come to install them.

Alan :cool:

T-uk

If you need some help with the fitting, give us a shout.

There must be something else missed, so am sure I/we can resolve the issue.

Alan :cool:

Alan,

Sorry I meant the uppipe, trouble is I've already had the headers fitted by the only people who deal with Scooby's round here and they don't think that they can sort it out although they are having another go as I type this and costing me more money with each attempt! to be honest I don't have much faith in them and unfortunately I haven't got the facilies or know how to do this my self !


Len.

On My supersprint manifold,there is no problem with leaks at the uppipe....

I´m using the Ford transit gasket,with gun gum + i have not bolted it to the head..

Skassa

very interesting reading guys...
I was part of the 1st gb..

I have mailed the guy who's collating the headers just so he knows whats what..

Just had a word with the garage and they say that they can't do anything about the leak! they suggest that I send the Manifold back to the States and ask for another to be sent! instead of being value for money this is turning into an expensive nightmare! they say that the flanges are warped and that the uppipe and Manifold don't line up properly! I'm getting right p*ss*d off with this already!


Len.

So, the problem seems to be ( and correct me if im wrong ) that people are fittng the manifolds with bent flanges. Obviously they should not be supplied like this, but at the same time, dont expect any gasket to seal on a warped surface.

DW...as for machining the flanges flat. I have always had bother in getting any machine shop here to grind anything such as that flat. Something that seems like it should be a bloody simple task, seems to baffle them when I ask them to do it.

Yet, when I ask a friend who works with the Railways machine shop, he always has it done for me the next day. No problems whatsoever. Very easy to do he says, and they have no better tooling than normal machine shops.

It's not that the flanges are obviously warped to the eye,and checking them for flatness is not something you would have to expect to do! the reason according to the garage is that instead of the pipework coming through the flange to the "front" of it the pipe is welded to the back and with the flange being relatively thin it distorts when tightened up.

Len.

bttt
Len: Might be worth mailing the chap at GruppeS *again* and asking what the craic is..

quite depressing stuff actually...

[Edited by chrome - 7/21/2003 7:14:15 PM]

The flanges are fairly thick, although constructed a little odd. Obviosuly for cosmetic reasons. I may weaken teh flange, as it sint the full 10-12mm thick across its entire area.
The manifolds I just received, have flat flanges. I checked them with a straight edge. If anything, there may be a very very slight bevel towards the edges. This would cause the flange to tighten harder in the middle though, which should compres the gasket well.
Wont be using the Gruppe S Up-pipe anyway, due to turbo fitments, but I think the manifolds will seal fine.
Will know in a few days though for sure.