***Proposal for petition to the government to have the law changed to give police and courts more power to dealing with car crime (Especially young offenders)***

**This applies to everyone, after all, we all suffer through high insurance premiums. Please support!**

Firstly I am looking to find out what people think of this idea as quite frankly, with todays police powers/court power when it comes to car crime is it's a total scandal!

I, and I am sure many of you will agree, that something needs to be done. I am sick of hearing about 12-17 years olds, nicking £££££'s worth of motors and torching them, only to be caught and given a slap on the wrist because they are 'too young to be procescuted'!

Not only do we suffer as the victims when the car we have worked damned hard to get (Especially those who spend time and money on mods or custom parts), but then we get peanalised for it as well by the insurance companies by have to pay even more! Isn't it enough that you just had your pride and joy nicked?

As far as I am concerned when a 11 or 12 year old kid, goes out and nicks a car, they are fully aware of what they are doing, the excuse of 'He is very young and didn't realise the conciquences of his actions / what he was doing' is complete rubbish! They know damn well what they are doing and therefore should be punnished! If a 12 year old kid stole £20K from a bank, I think they would be punnished more serverly than if it were 20K worth of car!

I Propose at least the following (Additions and comments welcome)
The punishment for car crime should be applied regarless of age:

As a guideline, this is for car theft:

The Minimum scentence should be 2 years imprisonment and a fine of £5000 or equal to the value of the vehicle stolen, which ever is higher.

Maximum 5 years and fine as stated above.

Criminals charged should *NOT* be released early for good behaviour as this defeats the object of a stiff punishment.

Age should not be restricted to 18years or older. it should apply to *ALL* car theives regardless of age!

Some of you might argue this is too stiffer punishment, but look at the bigger picture, it's more than just car theft:

Theft of car!
Vandalism (They are either gonna torch it or wreck it)
Wreckless endangerment / Dangerous driving (They are hardly going to stick to speed limits are they!! and should be treated the same as death by dangerous driving)
Stress to to victim
Victim persecuted by Insurance Premiums.

Etc Etc.

I would very much like to hear what other people think and possible get the ball rolling on something substantial to try and get the law changed!


Evil



[Edited by EvilKyote - 5/13/2003 10:20:43 AM]

The current sutuation is bad......however locking up little kids and institutionalising them, possibly teaching them better methods of criminality and spending taxpayers money to do it is not the way. From a practical point of view there are not enough prisons to hold these type of people.

I can't really suggest another way of punishing them that won't sound soft or a cop out. What I do know is that prison is not the answer. Some people have suggested that a life ban from holding a drivers licence would be the way to go. It would be a start along with severe finacial penalties for the parents and some type of unpleasant community service for kids and adults alike. Failing that I suppose we could always start lopping body parts off.

These people are a symptom of a sick and failing society.

here here !

I'll be well up for signing summat to this affect!

I think prison is more than fair for the car stealing scum, I can assure you they'd rather go to prison than meet me;) I can see some of the issues though, how about a short sentence, biiig fine and then being put on a register, like the phaedofile(SP?) one. Should they go straight, car finance centres, insurers etc would all be aware of the offenders history.

Basically anything that's more severe than at present has to be a good thing!

It's a thorny issue with no clear resolution.

But you will probably find that it is a few kids committing thousands of crimes rather than thousands of kids committing a few crimes.

The main problem is they know they can get away with it and once they become adult the slate is wiped clean, i.e. no previous convictions recorded.

off with their hands, then watch em try and nick a car

Blunkett's got enough on trying to convince the masses to lock suspected terrorists, so I afraid that this (although it would be nice) is possibly a non-starter.

Too many pro - civil liberty people around.

(IMHO of course)

Nacro: I see your point, and Don't like the idea of locking kids up! But at the end of the day, these community service punishments and stuff just do not work!

One of the biggest reasons why so many youngsters do it is because they know they will just get a slap on the wrist and at worst community service!

As for banning them from driving? Nice idea, but when they are nicking cars at 11 and 12 they don't have a licence to withdraw in the first place!

If there was another way I would welcome it but I can't see any other way other than giving a punishment they are going to hate! Thats the whole point of locking them up.

I do like the other guys suggestion of having like a car crime register! I would say that should be a must!

Either way, The biggest problem is with the police (No I am not accusing you guys from not doing your jobs!), As hard as they try they don't have the power that they should have, and after they get a result and catch one of the theiving little yobs, the courts go and let them off!

If you ask me the courts are the criminals for letting serious crime off with a slap on the wrist.

Yes stiffer punishments arfe a step in the right direction

Quote
The current sutuation is bad......however locking up little kids and institutionalising them, possibly teaching them better methods of criminality and spending taxpayers money to do it is not the way. From a practical point of view there are not enough prisons to hold these type of people.

If locking them up keeps this crime off of the streets then good, it will do for me until a better way can be found - the law is there to protect the innocent not the guilty

If not enough prisons then build more, not let people out eearly or not jail them 'cause there are not enough beds - what sort of message does that send out!

Quote
I can't really suggest another way of punishing them that won't sound soft or a cop out. What I do know is that prison is not the answer. Some people have suggested that a life ban from holding a drivers licence would be the way to go. It would be a start along with severe finacial penalties for the parents and some type of unpleasant community service for kids and adults alike. Failing that I suppose we could always start lopping body parts off.

These people are a symptom of a sick and failing society.

Could not agree more with you other than people who commit these crimes do not give much of a toss about a life ban, if you cannot educate them to lead decent lives then lock them up away from people who do or eventually all hell will break loose!

People have a choice to commit or not to commit crimes, if they do then they should pay for it, if jail is the only way of stopping them then jail them.

About time the decent law abiding people of this country where the focus not the scum!


[Edited by Paul Habgood - 5/13/2003 11:02:42 AM]

One thing that might just get some eventual progress is to make parents fully responsible to make reparation for any damage done by their children.

It can be argued that if children behave in such an anti social manner then it is largely the parents' fault for not bringing them up properly. We are rapidly descending into the depths of anarchy and if it is allowed to continue we will all end up in "Mad Max" land.

Les

Totally agree with Evil, when some young sc#mbag nicks a car and gets chased at whatever speed with no insurance, license or thought for any other pedestrian /road user, he gets a tickle on the wrist and told not to do it again and if he's lucky a week in the sun to help him over his disturbed childhood.

Now if you or i gets caught doing 50mph in a 40 we get 3 points and a £60 fine and god forbid we do anything reckless at even higher speeds with a police car in pursuit, we wouldnt see the light of day for 2 years or be able to get car insurance for another 5.

Lock the little bar-stewards up and fling the key away, thats the only lesson they will learn, and if like me you know they will get away with it, break his Fooking fingers and that is a much better lesson imho.

End of rant.

Zippy

Taking away their licence for life is no incentive. Look at the Ian Car (sp) case where he was already banned from driving and seriously injured or killed someone, then he went out and killed a young child and seriously injured her sister!

I truly believe that something needs to be done. I look at our country sometimes and think it's going to the dogs. Little sh1tes raping 80 yr old women, muggings, stealing cars and killing innocent children, 17 yr old girls who can't walk home from the pub after celebrating passing her driving test without being strangled..... the list goes on and on.

Stiffer sentences and stricter regimes in prisons may be one way forward, but the Government can't afford it. What now?

I would sign your petition however......

P.s. on Friday night we had 5 police officers in our road in bullet proof vests because some little scrotes were pulling a fence down!

My point about locking them up being doomed to failure is true I'm afraid.

We don't have enough prisons or staff to lock them up anyway. Also should the taxpayer foot the bill to train and feed more criminals? Another point is that prison life (or young offenders institute) is probably better than life outside for these kids. At least they get fed, get to be with their mates 24/7 and learn how to be "proper" criminals. Prison doesn't work for adults, I don't think it will work for these kids.

The solution to all this escapes me but prison isn't it. When I talked about community service I meant really, really unpleasant stuff. Combine this with drug tests and lots of other hassles for them in their daily lives (such as a life ban from holding a drivers licence for them and their parents) and they might decide to turn their attentions elsewhere. Also when it comes time for them to claim benefits a portion could be taken away ad nauseum until their debt is paid.

Responding to Leslie, i had a problem with a 14 year old by me who was causing loads of problems with general vandalism and attempted car thefts.
When the gentle chat to him didnt work i got his father and politely explained if he did anything again it would be him who i sorted out, as punishment for his kid being out of control.

Now i'm not saying he's become a little angel after this but he is a lot better, which is good for everybody on my estate to the point he even says hello to me and causes me no more problems.


Zippy

"The degree of civilisation in a society can be judged by entering its prisons" - Dostoevski

Nacro - not having a dig at you in any way and i do agree that prison is not he best place at the mo but i stand by locking away people who chose to commit crimes they made their choice and if prison is the only way of keeping them from doing it again then Prison it is!

Maybe they should do hard labour, be made to work to help pay or even build more prisons, learn trades and if at the end of their sentance they are still ocnsidered to be a menace to society by a panel of qualified people then they stay put, if they re-offend that they go away for double the normal sentance for that crime.


If prison is not a deterrant then what is???
Education may help
Getting people off of drugs may help if they want to get of, you can lead a horse to water..........
Perhpas kids who reppeatedly offend should be publicly birched or such - hey, if it works they give it a try.

Protect the innocent not the scum.

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 5/13/2003 11:24:25 AM]

Tobasco down the japs eye for each offence would soon sort the men from the boys

no point locking up just a ****ing good hiding and make the feckers feel pain

simple

You sick sick person Carpet cleaner, but i couldnt agree more i'm off to buy some Tobasco.

Zippy

<cringes>
CC - u speaking from experience there?

Completely agree, I cant believe they even get these ideas in their heads, when I was 13 I would never in a million years, think 'O, I'll go and nick a car!', completely bizarre.

The answer is simple....shoot em!

Gary

Gary K

Could not agree more, When i was 12/13 i would dream of owning them, at 16 i started earning money to buy them to realise the dream.

I would never have dreamt of knicking them.

First offence: removal of one testicle. Reduces testosterone and therefore aggression levels, plus acts as a real deterrent before the event of a theft and a constant reminder after it.

Second offence: removal of the other one.

Simple, cheap and effective :)

As for the prisons, Thats a joke as well! I can't believe what they have done to prisons, they have pool tables, cable tv, VCR's nice comfy rooms, etc etc!

The government / Prison service is just taking the piss! They aren't really prisons, they are more like holiday centres!

So, We should get the law sorted out for these damn car theives to get them off the street / get them rehabilitated, and the prisons should have all the niceties removed to make it into what a prison is supposed to be!!!

I think that there's got to be some form of 'pain' involved in serving a prison sentence together with education or other positive outlet.

I don't hold with this "losing one's freedom to move about" is the point of prison. It shouldn't be. I wouldn't want to go to prison as it stands but that's not because of the accomodation or fear of doing a bit of work.

I do think that something has to be done where kids/teenagers repeat-offend. As always though, to get a good solution you have to spend money.

-------

In jest.......
No point in shooting or killing them. Reclaim large tracts of land around the world by using the little b'stards as mobile mine detectors.

Vindaloo.

castration is a bit harsh

thing is it's all about conditioning. Offend you hurt, offend you hurt more, offend again and hurt even more

they'll soon stop - Nice thing about chilli sauce is it's effective but leaves no long term effects and it's not over in a jiffy, it'll hurt a while, every time they go for a pi55 for a while after they'll thinlk "was it really worth it"

Locking up is a waste of time and costs too much

The little cherubs should be bought a year old Zip kart and be encouraged to get involved with motorsport.

....at he tax payers cost obvioulsy.

If locking them up did work I would be in favour of it. However it really doesn't look at adult offenders. Prison increases recidivism rates. So if you want more of this type of stuff keep locking them up in our expensive and failing prisons. What's more we all as tax payers will fund their living expenses. Is that really what we want to do.

To really tackle crime I would do these things to start with

Legalise all drugs and make them available at cost price through govt shops. This will reduce drug related crime and organised criminals at a stroke. Perhaps some of the offenders will be to incapable through drug use to commit crime at all.

Make people responsible for their actions. Financial penalties, hard labour and humiliation in public will all help to make them realise this behaviour is not acceptable.


Remove penalties for those that are prepared to defend their property. If your caught stealing then you should expect natural justice to take its course. I'm not advocating murder but if the offender thought they would be likely to be caught by vigilantes then they will stop.

Prison does not work- sending them there is a waste of our money and like I said before prison is a better environment for many than their homes.

Capital Punishment - Bring back the belt in schools.

Zero Tolerance, 3 strikes with death penalty, that'd sort the problem. While most people would wimp out and put them in prison what's the point, as other have said we work hard and our taxes pay for this lot to sit there and do **** all and come out the worse for it. Just face the fact there simply are people who will never form a useful part of society and the world would be a better place without them.