I'm a little concerned that in its current set up my car isn't fully performing the way it should. This largely follows a run with Sipie last night and a brief comparison. Take these two cars:

MY99 with full tank of optimax and 1 driver
Swana backbox
ITG filter

V

MY99 with full tank of optimax (from same garage - probably same batch) and 1 driver
Scoobysport backbox
Old scoobysport centre section (i.e. welding pipe in place of cat)
Scoobysport downpipe
Standard Paper Filter
TEK 2.5-3 ECU upgrade
Dawes for boost control at 1.25 bar (remember sipies CAN'T run over 1.21 without hitting fuel cut - which it isn't)

Both cars could use a service and both were driven on the same cold night.

Surely by any reasonableness you'd expect the full decat/Tek'd car to be noticably quicker but that wasnt' the case. When inside them, Sipie's car felt slightly more flat but not as much as I'd think/hope. We both commented that they obviously feel different to drive but that the performance difference wasn't much if any. We then had a brief comparison - although by no means conclusive - and the acceleration seemed pretty matched even above 80mph which is when I'd expect full decat and Tek to start to hump the lesser near standard car.

So, what's the score??

Over coffee and biscuits we discussed the possibilities and felt that perhaps the standard filter was preventing my other bits from working well. I had originally been put of other filters by the MAF fears. Would an ITG make much if any of a difference? The only other thing is that because my centre section is a weld job it still has the 'subaru' resonator in - would this sap a lot of power? Personally, I think it does just enough to stop the sound from being annoyingly loud for everyday use.

John (cause I know you'll read this ;):D) when you set my map up for the partial decat you adjusted some of the ignition timing (I think) to ensure no det under those conditions. If so, could such settings now be hindering the car from opperating to its full potential now that it has a full decat, etc.

If Dave Brown from AWD reads this I'd appreciate it if you could explain the way my dawes was originally set up and why you thought it was unsafe?

Finally, I've got the chance to offer for an STI V intercooler for about £150 with no insurance penalty, would this be a worthwhile upgrade??

Sorry for the long post but I'm really picky about my car and always try to ensure its running as tip top as possible all the time. Advice, theories and thoughts all apprecaited :)

Just to add to the above.

My car 82k miles
Kennys car, mileage circa 35k.

Interesting post, Saxo my cars a similar spec to yours.

Are you running a Dawes device on your car, set to hold at 1.25bar or is the ECU doing the control?
If not running a Dawes, have you got a standard 1.2mm restrictor or are you running 1.3mm

Sorry if this doesn't add much .. but I have gone from ..

Standard MY00 .. felt quick
Added SS BB .. better top end, not much difference
added 801 ECU .. all out not much init, better on part throttle
Added SS DP .. more grunt low down, feels a wee bit quicker again
Added Dawes .. full boost by 2800, again a feels a bit quicker

So I'm almost ;) at SaxoBoy's spec, from standard (Saxo - did you do the same, mod from a standard car?)

All the mods have made the car feel a wee bit quicker, not mind blowingly quicker but defo a difference.

I still think if you were to take a standard MY99 against a similarly modded MY00 to mine, hold at 5K, drop clutch and full bore it to 100 there would not be a LOT in it. Full on straight line sprints would be similar.

According to EVO stats (to 100) a standard MY99 is 14.6, an RB5 (PPP) is 14.1, a P1 is 13.3. Not a MASSIVE difference.

Where your car should be MUCH better is on part throttle, driveability, full boost quicker/earlier and in gear times.
I would think cross country where you are not always flat out in the correct gear (assuming similar drivers) your car should be quicker.

Have you tried 35-75 in 3rd, from 40 upwards held in 4th?

Just curious ? Sorry if this is not much help :(

Doofus.

I assume the dawes has the standard restrictor - I've not changed anything. Its set a 1.25 bar but only every gets close to this in 4th and 5th gear. When I had the partial decat the dawes was set at 1.2 bar and it would get really close to this in 2nd and 3rd gears. Now its set at 1.25 but the boost in 2nd and 3rd gears probably hasn't gone up despite the max boost available having gone up. So whats this restrictor thing all about?

I realise there is never going to be a massive difference but I'm sure anyone who's raced a P1 (275bhp) v a UK turbo (215bhp) will vouch for the fact it can at least do a car length or two's damage. I'd expect that my car should be able to slowly reel in sipies and pass him (albeit slowly) or to eek out a useful lead if I'm in front.

The restrictor is in the one of the pipes that you take off to fit the dawes, so if you are running a dawes you won't be running the pipe with the restrictor in.

I've set my car up to 1.25 held with the dawes, when I try things without the dawes I only hold just over 1.1 bar, that's with a 1.25mm restrictor.

Logging on deltadash I've so far only seen 1 instance of -0.5% knock. Also running quite rich, as confirm by PE last week when it was on the rolling road.

Any more opinions or theories? Do I need a better filter? Is there a breathing problem, cooling problem, mapping problem or no problem?!

Kenny :)

IMHO it's all done at higher RPMs.

I've been in many scoobs, modded/umodded and all the versions. The P1's haven't felt that special in comparison to Std UK but above 4k rpm they can still accelerate faster all the way to 7k. This is where the difference is, so on track the Std UK will keep up to some extent until the long straights, where the P1 will out rev the UK.

On modded UK's they have felt the same to 3.5-4k but after that the modded cars can just soar away. The boost just keeps building like a cresendo (sp?) to the red line. The std UK will tail off at 5k ish revs and need another gear, losing more speed in the change.

So on paper, std vs modded the power may be greater by 10-15hp at low revs but at 6k the modded will have much more power.

F

Hmmm, that is consistent with our thinking over tea and crumpets. Maybe with a full on test at some place like crail where I only have to worry about keeping the wheel straight and changing gear as effectively as possible the difference would be apparent.

Hmmmm... I would be happy to go along with Floyd's thinking on this one.

Your car seemed to be running perfectly well and it certainly pulled very well higher on. As I mentioned to you Kenny, I noticed when driving your car it felt like it went through 100mph noticeably quicker than mine but not much in it lower down.
If you think back this would also roughly tie in to the bypass incident when you started reeling me in only over the 100mph mark and from memory you only had dawes and tec3 at that point.

Still feel a different filter would give it a chance to breathe a bit better for slightly better throttle response and a tiny bit more mid range oomph?

Cheers

I think we should swap filters so that I can try before I buy:D

No problem, will do as discussed.

You forgot to add this was of course on that very long private Highland road you own ;) :D

Absolutely ScoobyJawa...

How silly of me to omit that obvious but vital point :)

Cheers

Saxo,

Can you bump this BTTT once you've done your filter change :D

I'm interested in the results, would be VERY interested in the difference between the 2 cars in gear though (like I said 35-75 in 3rd), up from 40 in 4th etc). Just to see what differences a DP+Dawes really makes .. :D

On your long private highland road obviously ;)

Doofus.

Don't worry, I'm now in the final setting up stage and I'll be using this thread to the death to bounce ideas of people and report back results. I'll keep you up to date.

What about octane booster, would this be worth the extra £2.50 a tank?

Do you get Optimax in Eddingbourgh (never could spell that place :D )

does sipie have a ae800 my99 (black label) ecu?,I think these are the same ae801 map but leaner,more prone to det but faster.

the reason I ask is I ran one of these before getting a tek3 and found it to be a very strong ecu,especially with a dawes.also a m8 runs one one in his my99 car and there is nothing between our cars(I do not run the dawes anymore).both our cars are decatted,standard filters,no dawes.

T-uk...

Are they likely to be different ECU'S as both MY99's and as far as I know mine hasn't been messed about with?

Cheers:)

I think the earlier my99 spec cars had the ae800 with the later getting the ae801.

when I was looking for an earlier ecu for my ecu I think I decided as a rough rule of thumb that T reg cars had ae800 ecu's,V reg had ae801 and W's onwards got ae802 pants ecu.there are exceptions to this rule.

[Edited by T-uk - 10/17/2002 5:31:37 PM]

Mines was one of the good ones, as in not the cr@p MY00 ecu. John B knows for sure which ECU mines has. Sipies is a V reg MY99 whereas mines is an early T reg if that makes any difference. Surely it wouldn't make much of a difference though now that mines has had the JB treatment?

sipie,

it only takes a couple of minutes to look and see which ecu you have,it's in the passenger foot well below the carpet behind a kick plate,held in place by 3 10mm bolts.made easier if you have a socket but the standard subaru tool kit has a 10mm spanner.

JB maps for power and safety.on boost a few psi difference will not make that much difference in the real world,I found the biggest gain to be off boost upto 3000rpm and over 4500rpm since going tek3,mid range is much the same.

mind you the fact that saxo has a dawes should have helped.

a rolling road day and a spell round K/hill without the max power mags on the back seat might help ;) :p

sure it wasnt driving skill that is the cause here?

i.e. changing gears at the best torque time (not in the limiter for very long)...?

or tyres?

as i don't think it would be possible to notice a large difference between std and modded cars as the time difference is very slim and in real world terms doesn't equate to much.. (ie. the difference between a scoob and a saxo ;))

[edited to say: i know my dawes is restricting the turbo boost atm, and i need to take it off.. is your's doing this??]

[Edited by snowcrash - 10/17/2002 5:52:31 PM]

Boost has been strange since going full-decat and having the dawes wired up differently by AWD. If I floor it at 75mph in 5th it builds to full boost but the gauge waggles between 1.2 and 1.3 for a while and then it settles at 1.25 (but still not as consistently or smoothly as before). It'll hold 1.25 bar in 5th far better once silly speeds have been reached and when the turbo is about to tail off.

The conditions of our little test weren't ideal so yes it may have been drivers. A crail like test will help no doubt :) Sipie, bypass at 4am ;):D

Just remembered (this is probably one for JB) but: The power delivery on my car if very strange now. Turbo spools up early and fast due to the full decat and dawes and boosts nicely for a good while before the TDO4L gives in. In driving terms when the turbo comes in accleration is pretty rapid and good throughout the midrange. However, just as the boost starts to drop the car goes really flat for a short moment before picking up again. It's almost like there is a dead zone where the boost has dropped but the revs aren't high enough for the cams to do there bit yet. That may not make sense but I liken it to sticking a turbo on say a civic type r but it running out of boost at 5k rpm.....that way you'd get good acceleration from the turbo up to 5k rpm, then a dead 1k rpm zone followed by an active zone from 6k rpm till the red line due to the VTEC cams.

Do other full-decat tek owners have this dead zone?

Can it be moddified or better yet, mapped out?

I really apprecaite the thoughts and advice so far and I'm sorry if I'm labouring some points but I'm really trying to cover all bases here and build up my knowledge and understanding as much as possible :)

Saxo boy,

In your initial quote you say :Dawes for boost control at 1.25 bar (remember sipies CAN'T run over 1.21 without hitting fuel cut - which it isn't) does this mean the sipie is running a dawes as well as its not clear.
If this is the case i've known of cars running slightly more boost keeping up with ppp'd car no probs so there probably wont be a lot in it.

Paul

Sorry for the lack of clarity - sipie doesn't have a dawes. The reason I said that is because as has minimal mods he doesn't have a boost gauge so we don't know what boost his car makes. However, we do know for sure that it can't make more than 1.21 bar or he'd fuel cut :)

How should the dawes be set up incidently? On mines the t-piece has been taken off and both ends blocked and the dawes inserted between the two metal connectors that the t-piece used to connect to. Is this the correct/the best way/the only way?

Saxo boy,

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[Edited by paul w - 10/17/2002 7:19:46 PM]

[Edited by paul w - 10/17/2002 7:23:23 PM]

I have a pe t75 down pipe and have always had fairly good boost control between peak and held compared to a m8 with a magnex d/p.he fitted a dawes to control his boost better as he was getting peaks 3psi higher than his held and his gauge has this waggling too even with the dawes.

as for your dead zone the only thing I could suggest to try are changing the plugs,when I tried JB's PPP ECU and dawes at 18psi I seemed to get a miss coming onto boost,not as violent as fuel cut.I dropped the boost to 16psi and it was okay again.

the dawes sounds right,most remove the t piece and hoses so that only the hose leading to the inner wing needs blocked.is this how it was before?

[Edited by T-uk - 10/17/2002 7:15:07 PM]

How it was before was a really strange but I don't have the knowledge to describe it. I'll email dave brown and ask if he'd mind posting in this thread explaining why he rewired it :)