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-   -   Water Methanol Injection - Share experience (https://www.scoobynet.com/general-technical-10/1055207-water-methanol-injection-share-experience.html)

Rob Day 12 July 2018 03:13 PM

Water Methanol Injection - Share experience
 
Hi all,


I have been considering if WMI is worth it or not, and having read plenty threads on here, albeit most are old now, it would seem it has plenty positives and very few negatives.


However I am keen to listen to new reports on how people are getting on, surely this has got to be better than running 20% meth in tank permanently like I have done in the past?


Seems kits have come down in price now, and installation is not all that difficult, plus I believe mapping this in is also relatively straight forward especially if a defined switch, i.e. 1 bar is used consistently (read this somewhere)


Thoughts people?


Robert

SmurfyBhoy 12 July 2018 03:29 PM

For the best results use both,

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...kTGeKRMChC0SdN

Great series to watch if your interested in gains from fuels.

Intank doesn't help with IAT

WMI would help with IAT

SmurfyBhoy 12 July 2018 03:31 PM


And for those who CBA watching 14 diff vids for seperate results

Here is the last one where all are tested with spray,

All data on the excel sheet if you make a tactical pause 1:28

This is on an NA engine tho bear in mind :)

Rob Day 12 July 2018 05:01 PM

Cheers mate, just watched the short clip.


For comparison of where I am at, I managed 401 from a stock 2004 STI engine with a SC42 I think it was, and remap with Meth-in-tank it made 432 (I remember these figures vividly) Interestingly though if I recall correctly it made only 350ftlb on Vpower, but almost 400ftlb on meth which is the massive statement. Almost 15% more torque.


Now the only thing I am not clear about is whether the car was mapped to its safe limit without meth, and then pushed harder on the meth which wouldn't offer a true back to back test.


However my dribble is irrelevant as I am keen to learn about Meth Injection :D


Thanks for posting the links :)


Robert.

1509joe 12 July 2018 05:03 PM

Have It years its not mapped in just used at high boost to combat det at high ambient temps. Very useful if you've been sitting in traffic and everything's heat soaked. Every little helps and you can see the air charge temperature benefits instantly on the toucan when it kicks in. :thumb:

Rob Day 12 July 2018 05:06 PM

Found them on Photobucket of the comparison of the 20% meth mix.... (great memory...:D)


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...6a6f4b6560.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...62bfaca86a.jpg

SmurfyBhoy 12 July 2018 05:13 PM

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...2090e041e0.jpg

I also got a huge chunk more torque from AF road dyno usually close enough ive found within 5%(ish)


A good video explaining why you get this torque increase,

It's all about the timing with Ethanol,

Can only tune till the point of knock on pump fuel ,

With E85 you can add alot more,

trevsjwood 12 July 2018 07:43 PM

If you go on NASIOC they had/ have a section for W.M.I. and Aquamist (UK) frequently used to give help and advice on the forum. It just seems to have died off recently, I don't know why but there must be some historic stuff still there.
I have a Perrin/ Aquamist kit which was installed by Paul Blamire, (ZEN) in 2008, so 60k and has never blinked. It's mainly Aquamist but think Perrin may have supplied a few brackets and labels and it was sold through them.
The kit then cost 700 (inc vat) +spec c boot mounted water tank +9hrs labour (fitting) and of course initial mapping. That done it becomes part of the car and any further mapping is as it would normally be.
The pump and controller are mounted in the inner nearside front wing, the single jet is plumbed in the underside intercooler at t/b. It has a simple in car control switch which has warning lights for low/tank, low flow i.e. blocked jet (never happened). As said it's all mapped in and comes in at around 1bar boost. If it isn't switched on or there is a problem i.e. low flow, it limits boost to 1 bar.
It is a basic system, I think some are plumbed into the manifold for each cylinder. W/M is more popular where fuel quality is an issue. UK we have Vpower and added meth gets good power and safety.
The main reason I did it was I wanted to keep my TMIC, a personal choice.
Power wise we think it gives another 25hp, I have also run 20% meth in fuel and got another 25hp. Present figures on Vpower are 440hp/ 490lbsft (2.5/wrx heads) MD321T, so respectable. Charge temps/ oil temps/ egt's all on the low side and that would sustain on track, how much I can attribute to W/M overall is difficult but must be a factor.
Would I do it again? I would have to be quite convinced that I needed it because of the outlay, there are cheaper effective systems than Aquamist but when I did it I didn't need much convincing about anything concerning the scooby :)
Trev

1509joe 12 July 2018 09:36 PM


Originally Posted by trevsjwood (Post 12018054)
If you go on NASIOC they had/ have a section for W.M.I. and Aquamist (UK) frequently used to give help and advice on the forum. It just seems to have died off recently, I don't know why but there must be some historic stuff still there.
I have a Perrin/ Aquamist kit which was installed by Paul Blamire, (ZEN) in 2008, so 60k and has never blinked. It's mainly Aquamist but think Perrin may have supplied a few brackets and labels and it was sold through them.
The kit then cost 700 (inc vat) +spec c boot mounted water tank +9hrs labour (fitting) and of course initial mapping. That done it becomes part of the car and any further mapping is as it would normally be.
The pump and controller are mounted in the inner nearside front wing, the single jet is plumbed in the underside intercooler at t/b. It has a simple in car control switch which has warning lights for low/tank, low flow i.e. blocked jet (never happened). As said it's all mapped in and comes in at around 1bar boost. If it isn't switched on or there is a problem i.e. low flow, it limits boost to 1 bar.
It is a basic system, I think some are plumbed into the manifold for each cylinder. W/M is more popular where fuel quality is an issue. UK we have Vpower and added meth gets good power and safety.
The main reason I did it was I wanted to keep my TMIC, a personal choice.
Power wise we think it gives another 25hp, I have also run 20% meth in fuel and got another 25hp. Present figures on Vpower are 440hp/ 490lbsft (2.5/wrx heads) MD321T, so respectable. Charge temps/ oil temps/ egt's all on the low side and that would sustain on track, how much I can attribute to W/M overall is difficult but must be a factor.
Would I do it again? I would have to be quite convinced that I needed it because of the outlay, there are cheaper effective systems than Aquamist but when I did it I didn't need much convincing about anything concerning the scooby :)
Trev

Good write up Sir I can't and won't type :thumb:

NotFromSomerset 17 July 2018 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by Rob Day (Post 12018017)
Found them on Photobucket of the comparison of the 20% meth mix.... (great memory...:D)


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...6a6f4b6560.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...62bfaca86a.jpg

You could certainly feel the extra shove on the meth Rob. Noticed lower temps on hot days as well. Well set up car I shouldn't have sold it.

I've looked into injection in the past but seen some horror stories with systems failing. For the amount of money you spend I don't see extra benefits over mixing in the tank.

Gonna run 20% in the tank again when I get my spec c mapped and see where I can push the LM400 turbo with the TMIC, using parralell fuel rails to get more consistent fueling.

When my car was at RCM Olly showed me a pic of some meth and petrol that separated like oil and vinegar after sitting for a while which is my only concern. Car is driven daily though so can't see an issue. Have heard of additives that stop seperation.
Don't know how much your paying for petrol up north but 20% of your tank at just over 50p a litre certainly makes a difference too!

Rob Day 17 July 2018 08:12 PM


Originally Posted by NotFromSomerset (Post 12018810)
You could certainly feel the extra shove on the meth Rob. Noticed lower temps on hot days as well. Well set up car I shouldn't have sold it.

I've looked into injection in the past but seen some horror stories with systems failing. For the amount of money you spend I don't see extra benefits over mixing in the tank.

Gonna run 20% in the tank again when I get my spec c mapped and see where I can push the LM400 turbo with the TMIC, using parralell fuel rails to get more consistent fueling.

When my car was at RCM Olly showed me a pic of some meth and petrol that separated like oil and vinegar after sitting for a while which is my only concern. Car is driven daily though so can't see an issue. Have heard of additives that stop seperation.
Don't know how much your paying for petrol up north but 20% of your tank at just over 50p a litre certainly makes a difference too!

Hiya mate.

What you driving now?

Fuel up here is around 1.35 - 1.47 in my experience of Vpower.

I'm aware of meth separation and what it can do the fuel lines, but it's only for a short period, and historically I've had no issues with it. Tempted by the WMI just so it can be used when it's needed rather than to empty the tank.

Wonder is UZR is still going strong somewhere.

Robert

SmurfyBhoy 17 July 2018 08:55 PM

I use Bio-Ethanol.

Fair bit more expensive at 1.90L

would this seperate in the same way ? As it is in normal fuel & also E85 etc.

do they seperate ?

pump e85 us style ?

Rob Day 17 July 2018 09:20 PM


Originally Posted by SmurfyBhoy (Post 12018815)
I use Bio-Ethanol.

Fair bit more expensive at 1.90L

would this seperate in the same way ? As it is in normal fuel & also E85 etc.

do they seperate ?

pump e85 us style ?

I'm not qualified to answer sorry, but I have seen methanol and pump fuel separate.

trevsjwood 17 July 2018 09:46 PM

I'm not qualified either but a good guess would be yes.
They both absorb water from the atmosphere and I assume the water is the reason for separation. Important to keep storage drums tightly closed.
Wouldn't have thought it a problem when the car is used frequently. Also put additive in first and then fuel in on top to mix well, obvious but thought it worth a mention.
Methanol is toxic and corrosive, ethanol is safe.

Trev

SmurfyBhoy 18 July 2018 01:11 AM

Yea i know about the whole hygroscopic thing.

like brake fluid.

just thought because e85 is essential 85% ethanol this would suffer the same.

i dont think i have ever had same fuel in tank longer than 1 month on a 20% blend.

i may setup an experiment and try this with a sample if what i use bow this has been mentioned to see

NotFromSomerset 18 July 2018 02:17 AM


Originally Posted by Rob Day (Post 12018812)
Hiya mate.

What you driving now?

Fuel up here is around 1.35 - 1.47 in my experience of Vpower.

I'm aware of meth separation and what it can do the fuel lines, but it's only for a short period, and historically I've had no issues with it. Tempted by the WMI just so it can be used when it's needed rather than to empty the tank.

Wonder is UZR is still going strong somewhere.

Robert

In a modified Hawkeye spec c now, I'll stick it up in a thread when I've got the paint tidied up. The C's really are in a different league. Saw you moved to the dark side and got a hatch, how does it compare to your newages?

Aparantly it can wear the lines but I've never heard of anyone having an issue with that tbf.
Your right though the only pain is if your caught short or mess up the mix. I'll be using it all the time so no worries about wrong mix etc.

Did check the other day and it's taxed an mot'd. Guy I sold it too was a newbie to Subaru but solid car enthusiast so it's in good hands.
Would be good to see you at a meet or something at some point !

Paul

NotFromSomerset 18 July 2018 02:21 AM


Originally Posted by SmurfyBhoy (Post 12018873)
Yea i know about the whole hygroscopic thing.

like brake fluid.

just thought because e85 is essential 85% ethanol this would suffer the same.

i dont think i have ever had same fuel in tank longer than 1 month on a 20% blend.

i may setup an experiment and try this with a sample if what i use bow this has been mentioned to see

The problem with e85 is it's varies massively in potency, like 50-80% I think, so you need flex fuel sensors to be on the safe side. A lot more expensive than meth too.

I'm going to get a small container and leave some meth and petrol to see how long it takes to seperate out of interest. If it was a weekend car and didn't get used for period of time injection/e85 would deffo be the way to go

Rob Day 18 July 2018 08:59 AM


Originally Posted by NotFromSomerset (Post 12018883)
In a modified Hawkeye spec c now, I'll stick it up in a thread when I've got the paint tidied up. The C's really are in a different league. Saw you moved to the dark side and got a hatch, how does it compare to your newages?

Aparantly it can wear the lines but I've never heard of anyone having an issue with that tbf.
Your right though the only pain is if your caught short or mess up the mix. I'll be using it all the time so no worries about wrong mix etc.

Did check the other day and it's taxed an mot'd. Guy I sold it too was a newbie to Subaru but solid car enthusiast so it's in good hands.
Would be good to see you at a meet or something at some point !

Paul

Hi Paul,


I'm going TOTB again this year, are you going - I'll be there both days?


In fact bizarrely enough my car is in absolute bits but the mechanic working on it says get the event booked as it will be completed in time, so I booked on last night :freak3: - got everything crossed!


Catch up at Elvington if your running up?


Robert.

SmurfyBhoy 18 July 2018 09:04 AM


Originally Posted by NotFromSomerset (Post 12018884)
The problem with e85 is it's varies massively in potency, like 50-80% I think, so you need flex fuel sensors to be on the safe side. A lot more expensive than meth too.

I'm going to get a small container and leave some meth and petrol to see how long it takes to seperate out of interest. If it was a weekend car and didn't get used for period of time injection/e85 would deffo be the way to go

e85 pump was just an example

As in

if the e85 is safe from seperation id imagine it would be the same for vpower + 20% E

if you keep blend the same no need for flex fuel

but yes pump e85 can be way less depending on area etc.

will have a read today see what i can find.

i would guess the same storage rules & lifespan would ve similar to e85

trevsjwood 18 July 2018 10:11 AM


Originally Posted by SmurfyBhoy (Post 12018873)
Yea i know about the whole hygroscopic thing.

like brake fluid.

just thought because e85 is essential 85% ethanol this would suffer the same.

i dont think i have ever had same fuel in tank longer than 1 month on a 20% blend.

i may setup an experiment and try this with a sample if what i use bow this has been mentioned to see

I would have thought but don't know, that E85 is a blend and benefits from a process over adding a percentage to the tank.
Trev

NotFromSomerset 23 July 2018 09:42 AM


Originally Posted by Rob Day (Post 12018894)
Hi Paul,


I'm going TOTB again this year, are you going - I'll be there both days?


In fact bizarrely enough my car is in absolute bits but the mechanic working on it says get the event booked as it will be completed in time, so I booked on last night :freak3: - got everything crossed!


Catch up at Elvington if your running up?


Robert.

Busy this weekend otherwise me and a mate were thinking about it. Pretty sure it's sold out already now anyways. Haven't done a proper scooby meet for ages what have you got up your end in the future?
Think most of it is organised on Facebook groups now but I deleted mine years ago!

Hopefully the cars back together in time :eek: forged the 2.5 by any chance?

Rob Day 23 July 2018 11:09 AM


Originally Posted by NotFromSomerset (Post 12019563)
Busy this weekend otherwise me and a mate were thinking about it. Pretty sure it's sold out already now anyways. Haven't done a proper scooby meet for ages what have you got up your end in the future?
Think most of it is organised on Facebook groups now but I deleted mine years ago!

Hopefully the cars back together in time :eek: forged the 2.5 by any chance?



That's a shame, and yes the competitor entries are now full, but spectators tickets are not capped if you decide to have a look up. I'm not sure what else is available this year as I haven't looked, but there isn't anything very near me, the nearest I think for a sprint is Oulton Park near Crewe.


Car is back up and running but it's not playing ball, so it is in the hands of the mapper. Looks like I might need to go Syvecs so I can bypass and fine tune, its a good thing, but at a bad time.

lockheed 19 October 2018 07:06 PM

Just to resurrect this a little . im getting a devilsown kit and my mapper has asked what size tank I want . Im asking you guys for some wisdom as I cant always get hold of him by way of phone call , he always replies to emails but days later .
So its a road car and not always on boost and want to control it via my link g4 …… say vary the spray volume against intake air temp and boost pressure , roughly how long will a tank last if your doing a 150 miles a week with a 2 gallon tank .
I know there are a lot of variables to this but just want to hear about how often people have to top up and what size tank they have and where they have mounted the tank .
thanks in advance . L

trevsjwood 20 October 2018 11:40 AM

these systems use very little on the road, as said they only spray when the car is running boost, my Aquamist for instance, the threshold is set at 1.2bar boost so is only activated when the threshold is met. Just to give some idea, on track, usage would be somewhere in the region of 7-10% of fuel, so 100litres fuel used/ 7-10 litres water/meth used. On road driving could be as little as 2-3%.
150 miles per week my guess would be with a 2gallon container you would check weekly and top up as required.
I have the 12litre Spec C intercooler water spray tank which fastens to the back side of the rear seats, it's way over sized for road driving only.
Trev

lockheed 20 October 2018 02:32 PM


Originally Posted by trevsjwood (Post 12031415)
these systems use very little on the road, as said they only spray when the car is running boost, my Aquamist for instance, the threshold is set at 1.2bar boost so is only activated when the threshold is met. Just to give some idea, on track, usage would be somewhere in the region of 7-10% of fuel, so 100litres fuel used/ 7-10 litres water/meth used. On road driving could be as little as 2-3%.
150 miles per week my guess would be with a 2gallon container you would check weekly and top up as required.
I have the 12litre Spec C intercooler water spray tank which fastens to the back side of the rear seats, it's way over sized for road driving only.
Trev

Thanks for reply , did you run meth / water line in or outside the car for your set up ? does it need to be ptfe line , I bought a load of convoluted ptfe tube for my fuel rails a while back from think automotive very expensive from memory .

trevsjwood 20 October 2018 03:16 PM


Originally Posted by lockheed (Post 12031427)
Thanks for reply , did you run meth / water line in or outside the car for your set up ? does it need to be ptfe line , I bought a load of convoluted ptfe tube for my fuel rails a while back from think automotive very expensive from memory .

It doesn't need to be fuel line piping, mines good strong clear plastic pipe, as usually supplied with new kit and run up the inside sill through to nearside inner front wheel arch where the pump is fixed.
Trev

scooby2.5maz 20 October 2018 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by NotFromSomerset (Post 12018810)
You could certainly feel the extra shove on the meth Rob. Noticed lower temps on hot days as well. Well set up car I shouldn't have sold it.

I've looked into injection in the past but seen some horror stories with systems failing. For the amount of money you spend I don't see extra benefits over mixing in the tank.

Gonna run 20% in the tank again when I get my spec c mapped and see where I can push the LM400 turbo with the TMIC, using parralell fuel rails to get more consistent fueling.

When my car was at RCM Olly showed me a pic of some meth and petrol that separated like oil and vinegar after sitting for a while which is my only concern. Car is driven daily though so can't see an issue. Have heard of additives that stop seperation.
Don't know how much your paying for petrol up north but 20% of your tank at just over 50p a litre certainly makes a difference too!

Never seen meth at 50p per litre. I but it at 29 for 25 litres.

Rob Day 25 October 2018 10:00 AM


Originally Posted by scooby2.5maz (Post 12031435)
Never seen meth at 50p per litre. I but it at 29 for 25 litres.

I used to use Trinity Chemicals although they may now no longer be in operation, however I have found Trinity Organics on ebay http://www.ebaystores.co.uk/trinity-organics

Just had a quick search and seen this at 65pl https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIRGIN-ME...GK45:rk:6:pf:0 or http://www.sidwil.com/catalog/produc...products_id=96 but you'll need to arrange collection or ADR delivery

Also used Bonny Chems, again appears to be renamed: https://www.bonnymans.co.uk/products...productID=6032 Need to call for price.

Also used Jenny Chem https://www.jennychem.com/shop/methanol-bio-diesel/803-methanol-9985-new-210ltr.html

Good luck,
Robert.



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