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Learning View - pre and post belt change
Evening
Had my timing belt changed a couple weeks ago - and the following is the Learning View screenshot pre and post belt change. Pre belt change: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...7a31405c9f.jpg Post belt change: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...65f616cc13.jpg Seems to be a number of differences. Anything to worry about? Timing belt need adjusting? Many thanks Richard |
If you occasionally see -1.4 values (or smaller, e.g. -1.05, -0.70, -0.35) in different cells at different times, your car is probably healthy. Even when running the stock tune there will be some corrections like those. Perhaps they are due to occasional knock, perhaps just noise. However Subaru seems to feel it's no big deal - and remember, they have to rebuild these motors under warranty. If you see one or two cells with small corrections, and it's a different cell (and sometimes, no cells) every time you check, then your motor is probably healthy - but you should use data logging to make sure. If you see many cells with small corrections, you should make some changes to reduce the amount of knock your engine has to put up with. If you see values beyond -1.4 (such as -1.75, -2.80, -3.15, and so on) then you have a problem. Such numbers indicate that the ECU pulled 1.4 degrees of timing and still saw knock. This is a cause for concern, and you should do something about it. More about that below. If you see positive values in the FLKC table, the ECU has used an IAM reduction, and is now experimenting with increased timing (increased from the values that the reduced IAM produces) to see if it's safe. The ECU will never add timing beyond the total allowed by the base + advance timing tables, however a reduced IAM makes some room for positive values in the FLKC table. |
The only way to know 100% if the belt is timed correctly is to remove the covers and check
IAM on 12 OR 14 isn't a 'happy' engine. Small negative corrections on the FLKC table can be considered normal on some ecus/rom files with the IAM remaining at 16, but IAM changes are not IMO Is your Ecu mapped, what mods are you running and what fuel is going in the tank? |
Originally Posted by little'un
(Post 11764006)
The only way to know 100% if the belt is timed correctly is to remove the covers and check
IAM on 12 OR 14 isn't a 'happy' engine. Small negative corrections on the FLKC table can be considered normal on some ecus/rom files with the IAM remaining at 16, but IAM changes are not IMO Is your Ecu mapped, what mods are you running and what fuel is going in the tank? Car is a standard PPP and running either 97 or 99 ron. For interest, actually, found a more recent screenshot, which was after an ECU reset a week before the timing-belt change. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.sco...38296342d9.jpg |
on a PPP car if you get a less the super batch of fuel the IAM seems to drop off pretty quick. Though if your always filling with vpower/momentum I would expect it to be at 16 all the time.
If your down at 12 - personally i wouldn't be boosting the car until I get everything checked out first. Any chance the garage doing the work had to top up the fuel to move the car around and accidentally filled it with regular/rubbish? |
Originally Posted by bludgod
(Post 11764209)
on a PPP car if you get a less the super batch of fuel the IAM seems to drop off pretty quick. Though if your always filling with vpower/momentum I would expect it to be at 16 all the time.
If your down at 12 - personally i wouldn't be boosting the car until I get everything checked out first. Any chance the garage doing the work had to top up the fuel to move the car around and accidentally filled it with regular/rubbish? No, I dropped the car off pretty full up. My IAM does seem to be all over the place - was down at 8 for a while, then 14, 16 and now down to 12 again. I'll monitor it closely over the next couple weeks. |
Well, looks like my turbo is knackered - play on the shaft all over the place - so that needs changing. Also looks like the pre-cat in the up-pipe is starting to come apart too - so replacement up-pipe done at the same time. Now sourcing both!
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should see a good difference then once you get the uppipe replaced and a fresh turbo on! Is it possible these faults are the result of an underlying problem though? Cat could've just died of old age but if the car was running very lean then the extra heat might have helped it along. If the turbo was overboosting due to an airleak it would also reduce its life expectancy. I'd recommend getting a good checkover done once the new bits are fitted just to confirm they were the true fault and not just the result of an underlying problem.
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Thanks. The car is in with a very decent guy, Duncan at Hypertech, so hopefully any airleaks will be noticed. I'll use RomRaider to closely monitor the car too over the few weeks once I get it back. Sourced an STI up-pipe easily enough from Alyn but sourcing a semi-decent TD04 is proving tricker!
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could you be tempted for a TD05 and set of STI pinks? You can pick up a set of pinks for about £100 quid these days and TD05's are plentyful - you'll be looking a map once the STI uppipe is in anyway so would be a good time to do all at once if the engine is healthy. I actually found I got better fuel economy with the 16g and pinks vs the TD04 and standard injectors!
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lol - I'm trying to say away from further maps/mods. I've been down the VF35 route before (with pinks, etc) but I'm trying to stay standard this time.
I'm not planing on doing a remap after the up-pipe straight-away, rather I'll monitor it to check that it doesn't run lean - appreciate that a remap might well be the outcome. |
oh - don't forget your resistor mod for the EGT sensor then - bin the EGT probe and stick a resister across the connector for it that will save you from the fault code.
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/engine...istor-mod.html |
Thanks - yep, had to do that on my last Scooby too - and Duncan mentioned it when I was on the phone to the garage yesterday.
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Sorry to but in here, what software are you logging with? What cable can you do this with?
Also IAM16 is peak timing correct? (no knock detected) so IAM14 is 2 degrees pulled across the board? thanks ;) |
I'm just using one of these: http://r.ebay.com/r6b9GE for reading (well, one that looks like that!). The cable isn't good enough to do any mapping but it will log stuff and does a ECU reset.
Software wise it is http://www.romraider.com and the Learning View is a standalone app from them: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic2772.html |
the learning view page has been included in romraider logger for a while now - just hit the "show LTV" button and it will show you all the same stuph without having to change apps.
IAM16 is peak timing, but doesn't mean no knock detected - just means any knock detected hasn't been bad enough or over a wide enough range to drop the whole timing table back. You might still be getting some fine learning/feedback knock that you would ideally log and find. |
For some reason I could never get LTV to work within RomRaider itself, so had to resort to the standalone version.
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Originally Posted by bludgod
(Post 11764894)
the learning view page has been included in romraider logger for a while now - just hit the "show LTV" button and it will show you all the same stuph without having to change apps.
IAM16 is peak timing, but doesn't mean no knock detected - just means any knock detected hasn't been bad enough or over a wide enough range to drop the whole timing table back. You might still be getting some fine learning/feedback knock that you would ideally log and find. |
Originally Posted by Scotsman
(Post 11764891)
I'm just using one of these: http://r.ebay.com/r6b9GE for reading (well, one that looks like that!). The cable isn't good enough to do any mapping but it will log stuff and does a ECU reset.
Software wise it is http://www.romraider.com and the Learning View is a standalone app from them: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic2772.html |
Originally Posted by boosted
(Post 11764906)
So if it did go to IAM14 it is pulling two degrees from the whole map? I understand the ecu constantly makes fine ig timing changes with the fine knock learning.
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html But generally the knock advance value that's used is multiplied by IAM/16 - so if your IAM is at 16 then it's 16/16 = 1 i.e. no change, if your IAM is at 14 then 14/16 then it's 0.875 so if your knock advance was 10 you'll only see 8.75 degrees instead. Once the IAM drops below the safety cut value you'll switch to the richer timing table and the boost solenoid is disabled as the ECU tries it's best to protect you from some awful disaster. |
Learning view look ace! So you don't need romraider to use it? it says its a standalone app/tool.
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Originally Posted by boosted
(Post 11764910)
Learning view look ace! So you don't need romraider to use it? it says its a standalone app/tool.
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Originally Posted by bludgod
(Post 11764909)
it's explained in more detail here:
http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html But generally the knock advance value that's used is multiplied by IAM/16 - so if your IAM is at 16 then it's 16/16 = 1 i.e. no change, if your IAM is at 14 then 14/16 then it's 0.875 so if your knock advance was 10 you'll only see 8.75 degrees instead. Once the IAM drops below the safety cut value you'll switch to the richer timing table and the boost solenoid is disabled as the ECU tries it's best to protect you from some awful disaster. |
Originally Posted by boosted
(Post 11764912)
Well explained thanks, so the safety cut value is set by the mapper? what is a normal IAM safety cut value?
On the WRX map it disables boost below 6 and re-enables when you go over 8, but for the STI it drops boost at 5 and comes back after 7 so it depends which ECU you have fitted or which base map was used. Also yes learningview has it's own app you can run, but personally I find the romraider button a lot handier as you can finish your logging runs and just hit the button and save the image before closing down the app. |
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