Engine Failure - Do I have any rights
 

Just wondering if anyone has any knowledge on where I stand with regards the following:

1) Bought a Ford Fiesta 1.6 TDCi from JCT 600 on 10th April 2014 with 37444 miles on it.
2) It has suffered, as yet, an unknown engine failure which has resulted in a loss of compression on cylinder no. 3
3) The car currently has about 42k miles on it.

So the law says:

When you buy a used vehicle from a trader you are making a legally binding contract. You have legal rights against the trader under the Sale of Goods Act 1979.

The vehicle should be:

- Of a satisfactory quality - free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. When assessing satisfactory quality you should take into account the price you paid for the vehicle, its age, mileage and condition at the time of sale.

- Fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the trader - fit to be driven on the road.

- As described - the vehicle should correspond with any description applied to it. In some circumstances, the trader may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer of the vehicle.

If the vehicle is faulty , you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:
•a full refund
•compensation (damages)
•repair or replacement
•rescission or reduction in price


Given the age of the car, the time I've had it, and the mileage it's done both from new and since I've bought it, is this an avenue to go down and ask them to repair the car? A reasonable length of time is where it will become subjective.

Thanks

Q

After 7 months I doubt it. :(

I would say a reasonable length of time would be around 3 months not 7 months

Not a chance far too long

6 months for the dealer to put it right according to small claims court that my mate has just been through,

Check the injector seals , copper washers as they fail on these cars often, that could cause the lack of compression as it blows straight past the injector when the seals gone.

Was just going to say that. My sis in laws dos exactly that plus both intercooler plastic pipes were cracked and leaking very badly when the car was going. The injector seal repair was a pig of a job because of the amount of carbon that had gathered around it. DPFs fail often too, Ford have them down for a 75k life expectancy provided they get plenty of long journeys.

6 months is standard, you can always ask.

These Peugeot citroen engines are bad for munching turbos too, the oil feed has a small filter in it, this chokes and starves the turbo of oil. Usually carbon is the problem, choking the oil pickup too. Something to do with the injector seals leaking and carbon in the sump, Lack of oil changes kills them too. Oil should be changed every 6k to keep them alive

The car is at a main Ford dealer at the moment, but having explained the situation to JCT600, they've requested that no further work is carried out.

The car does come with a 12 month warranty, but has some excluded items. Another issue is that the garage can't find out what is wrong with it without taking the cylinder head off. The warranty company won't authorise this work, because they don't know what the issue is and thus don't know if they are liable. So I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with it.

Having spoken with Citizens Advice, they advised that I ring JCT and inform them of the situation, since I could go the small claims route to argue the 'fair and reasonable' angle and that I'm in effect being blackmailed to underwrite the diagnostics to determine what is wrong. (£700)

So I've requested that they provide me with an alternative vehicle whilst this mess is sorted out and that they repair or replace the car. I'm trying to be reasonable about the whole thing, and by giving them the option to remove the car from the Ford dealer and repair it themselves, I'm trying to keep costs down to a minimum for them.

I don't expect this is going to be easy !!!

On the matter of excluded parts, one such item is burnt out valves. The car was running fine, was returning 60mpg and gave no indication that anything was wrong. Then it went bang. My gut feel is that this cant' be a burnt out valve, but I'm no mechanic, so only coming to this conclusion based on what I've read on the interweb on how burnt out valves manifest themselves over a period of time with lumpy running and poor economy? If it is a burnt out valve, then considering the mileage I've done in the car (just over 6K), it suggests the problem might have been around when I bought it? Sound reasonable?

Cheers

Q

Silly question perhaps, has the timing belt broken/slipped?

Not broken as the engine still runs, no compression on cylinder 3. No idea if it slipped or not.

Cool, didn't know it was still running. Any water ingestion that could have bent a rod?

I've take it they tested compressions then which usually mean the injectors have been removed ruling out the seats (unless it was done via the glow plugs, which I doubt due to their location).

I work with a lot of these lumps anf for all their faults compression issues (bar injector seats chuffing) is usually not one of them. The only thing that springs to mind is a cam follower has collapsed and eaten a cam lobe away on the camshaft. This causes a loss of valve lift on the affected cylinder, and consequentially a drop in compression. It's noted by an off-beat exhaust/induction noise, not too different from a Subaru with unequal headers accompanied by a top end rattle at high revs. Lifters cams and followers for these engines aren't cheap - often it cheaper source a second hand lump.

I assume they've checked the compressor wheel is intact on the turbo as that takes all but 30seconds to gain access and inspect. As this would help rule out debris ingestion.

That sound reasonable. I assume the collapse is the 'bang' moment when it happend and the valve smacks the piston at TDC? Big top end rattle exists as well. I don't know what else they've done or tested, but thanks for the post.

In the meantime, JCT's own warranty dept. have told me that the dealer has put the wrong warranty on the car, it should have been Platinum Plus rather than just Platinum, and I've sent a letter to the dealer GM. At lunch time, the same letter goes to the CEO of JCT600. Why do I suspect they are just going to ignore me and hope I go away?

6mnths or under you have a great case, 6mnths up to a year you still have a good case especially considering the low miles of said vehicle, vehicle is not fit for purpose.
You will not get a full refund as you have to give the dealer I think 3 chances to fix the fault.
Get in contact with CA they will give you all the info you need to peruse this case lawfully.
Any correspondence with the trader needs to be logged and recorded etc.

We had an issue earlier in the year with a vehicle not fit for purpose through a trader.
It took many letters and lots of advice as the trader would not budge, in the end it took threats of small claims. Vehicle is now fixed with no expense on us.

Good luck.

No in my experience it doesn't usually go bang, at worst it rattles and sounds like a tin of marbles...the followers are rollers, supported by needle type roller bearings. When they fail the needle bearings go all over the place in the camshaft area. Whats left of the follower (the bracket that holds the roller) is then left to grind against the camshaft damage it and reduce valve lift on the affected cylinder. They are very small though - you can fit about ten on thumb nail and there's probably about 15 to 20 of them in each follower (of which there are 16 followers).

I guess its possible the needles or a roller floating about may get caught in something or jam against a cam lobe, which could momentarily hold a valve open further than its supposed to causing piston/valve contact. That would cause a bang and allow the engine carry on running, but I've not seen that happen though.

I think the problem you are having with the warranty company is due to the cost of repairing these engines, these types of failure usually are oil supply related which can point to other parts of the engine being worn/blocked/damaged too meaning a total rebuild or replacment is the only option. This is probably why they are playing hard ball from the outset.

Your main ground of argument Is 42K a reasonable amount of time to last before it suffers a major failure? Obviously the answer to that is NO - If you have service history to rule out cases of neglect, this will put you in a better position. If the car has questionable service history, or none, then obviously this argument goes out the window.

Thanks for the great post/advice.

Things are looking up - they've just phoned to say they are going to provide a courtesy car whilst mine is repaired, although the repair is yet to be confirmed, but it's a start.

Car has FDSH, last serviced at the garage that sold it to me :)

SOGA is 6 months dealer to prove not at fault after 6 months up to something like 6 years it'll be down to you to prove not fit for purpose if you want to reject etc.

Update:

This was finally sorted out last Friday !!!!

Basically we got our money back minus £750 which is deducted for the time we had the car (7 months). The car was repaired and an attempt to return it to us was made in August, however it turned up with no paper work and covered in marks on the paint work so we sent it back. We were then told it would be back with us again in 1-2 weeks, but it never happened.
So at the start of November we said enough was enough, give us our money back and come and collect your courtesy car. It all got a bit heated and nasty, but they saw sense in the end.
From what I was told, the engine dropped a valve, which in turn hit the piston, which then flew back up and bent the cam? The ford garage said the engine was beyond repair and needed a new one off a pallet, but JCT didn’t like that so took the car away to their own place – except they don’t have a Ford dealership to their name. Their own warranty company hasn’t paid out, which rings more alarm bells than anything else in this sad episode.
We had two courtesy cars from them, one an A4 2.0 TDi. We took delivery of it with 7k miles on it, and returned it was 23k. It also had new tyres and needed service. When they took the A4 away, we were provided with a A6 3.0 TDi Quattro that went like sh1t of a shovel. That was brand new and went back with over 2k on the clock. I did suggest to them months ago that they should just pay up or give us another car, but it fell on deaf ears.
Anyway, never give up and if all else fails ask them for a meeting in their showroom on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon 

Sounds like they took your money for the warranty, but didn't actually buy one for you.


Happened to me once, cost them dear in the end, smart arses

Well done on persevering

This was useful:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...what-can-i-do-

A result, well done. I think I'd have given up the fight:thumb:

Good to see you finally got it all sorted out :thumb:
They wouldnt have needed a Ford garage specifically, a Peugeot or Citroen garage would have done as this is a PSA/Ford engine so common in those marques.
Unusual fault though, never had any issues with the 1.6 HDI's i've had (only had 2 though and those were the newer versions), dont be put off buying one again, as long as they are run correctly and serviced on time, they just go on and on :) (though my "new" one is a 2ltr BlueHDI :D).

Well the Mrs has already gone out and bought another Fiesta, this time a Ecoboooooooost Ztec S. Nice thing it is too.

Eldest who is 17 later this month also has a 1.4 ztec sat on the drive. Strange how the insurance on a 1.4 is cheaper than an older 1.25.

I'm now stuck with the Datsun Quashqai with the poorest cabin heaters known to man. Looking at a new heater matrix to see if I can improve things or at least rip the OEM one out and give it a good clean out, which is documented on a few interweb threads.

I had an eco boost fiesta for a week on a recent trip back to the UK, quite an impressive little car, not actually that small either, loads of room for 4 adults, unlike fiestas of old.

I was really quite impressed with it, plenty of go and returned 33mpg over all, considering I was spanking it almost everywhere, it was a rental after all and I think it's obligatory. :lol1:

It has seriously made me and the Mrs consider getting one when the current shed hack dies and at less than £100 a month on lease for a brand new one it's rather tempting when I add the numbers up, low tax, no service costs I start to see why many people opt for this route.

Yeah, we had one as a rental in France earlier this year. Really enjoyed it and also thinking about getting one for the other half.

BTW - well done for persevering and getting a result.