Can someone answer this please
My car has been fully decat and has a cone air filter on it now my question is if it hadnt been mapped would it run awful or wouldnt it make that much difference doing the decat and filter?
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Your car will need a remap for these modifications. Having a decat and induction kit your AFR(air fuel ratio) will need to be changed as well as boost levels,wastegate duties ect. If these aren't mapped into you mods then you may well be running a lean or rich mixture which will cause engine damage.
I'm no expert but there are good experts who are members on here and will be abel to explain better than me |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490753)
What sort of engine damage can you get from running lean or rich?
Running lean is just going to be a waste of money :D (= rebuild in case you hadn't guessed) |
Hi first thing has your cone filter come with a pipe that you fit the MAF sensor into? - - YES then your MAF sensor scaling is all wrong so that puts your fueling off in all areas and the ecu will not be able to compensate the differences in all areas of the tables to keep running safe - Also with the different pipe length and diameter and the free-er flowing air filter you will more than likely have more air coming into the engine than the ecu is being told by the MAF sensor, this will weaken your fuel mixture which increases combustion temps and will melt your pistons.
Keep off boost until mapped and you SHOULD be ok depending on the level of change you made to the inlet!! |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490985)
What???????
People will be saying that you need to remap if you change from Black to Lime Green pipes ... because obviously it's all different. Im sure you would be in a minoraty if you are :wonder: |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490985)
People will be saying that you need to remap if you change from Black to Lime Green pipes ... because obviously it's all different.
If you have to ask what engine damage can result from running lean conditions, you perhaps shouldn't be taking the pi55 out of people who are trying to help. |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490985)
What???????
The MAF measures airflow. That's its job. It doesn't matter how long/short/bendy/straight the pipe is, it measures the amount of air passing by it. It you cut the filter off entirely, the MAF would still measure the amount of airflow passing it and the ECU would calibrate accordingly. The "tables" are only used in closed loop, and it'll be open loop as soon as the O2 sensor is up to temp. People will be saying that you need to remap if you change from Black to Lime Green pipes ... because obviously it's all different. |
OK so i refrained from commenting on these but as you obviously have no understanding in this area and have tried slating me then why refrain.
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490753)
What sort of engine damage can you get from running lean or rich?
[/QUOTE]Also, isn't the AFR managed in open loop mode from O2 sensors and MAF readings? As I understood it, the map will only have effect in closed loop while warming up till the O2 sensors gets up to temp.[/QUOTE] No AFR is not managed in open loop by the o2 sensors you have this completely the wrong way round so for your future knowledge. Closed loop lambda control is controlled by reading from the o2 sensor and the ecu adjust fueling and timing to compensate for readings. Open loop the ecu uses the defined tables in the ecu to try and achieve the target AFR.
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490985)
What???????
The MAF measures airflow. That's its job. It uses a hot wire with an electrical current that keeps the wire at a defined temp. when air passes over the wire it cools down and the ecu has to provide a larger elec current to keep it at the same temp. it then looks at the voltage it is using to keep the wire at the correct temp and this tells the ecu how much air is flowing over it. This is determined by the MAF scaling in the Map Now if you increase the diameter of the pipe the sensor sits in then the values in the MAP table are now incorrect, as the mass of air flowing to keep atr the same temp has now changed, and therefore need re scaling. .[/QUOTE]It doesn't matter how long/short/bendy/straight the pipe is, it measures the amount of air passing by it. It you cut the filter off entirely, the MAF would still measure the amount of airflow passing it and the ECU would calibrate accordingly..[/QUOTE] So you increase and decrease the inlet tract on you car and see how it idles - do you know anything about inlet tract pressure waves and what effect these have on the running of the engine??? I don't think you do. Now i didn't think going into all this was relevant and then moving onto to the effect on Boost control as i had answered the OP'S question and that was yes he needs a remap. Keep off boost until you get it sorted and you should be fine. Now if you've nothing more constructive to add but to try and take the piss out of people who are offering genuine advice then i suggest you do one:hjtwofing:hjtwofing:hjtwofing |
Could we be on for a 10 pager? :norty:
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Originally Posted by Blue by You
(Post 11491054)
Could we be on for a 10 pager? :norty:
These kind of treads deserve at least 10 pages a lot of us are on a learning curve into mapping and some are in denial |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491083)
That'll teach me to skim read and miss important bits :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11490985)
What???????
The "tables" are only used in closed loop, and it'll be open loop as soon as the O2 sensor is up to temp. |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491066)
Yes, I used the words backwards.
I know exactly how they work. The MAF sits in a solid plastic tube of fixed size. All he's changed is the filter to a cone. Ergo no recalibration required. So I ask again ... why does it need a remap? |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491083)
I can understand and agree for certain circumstances, but a lot of the time people just assume a remap is necessary. I'd like to know exactly why, that's all. If I rub some people up the wrong way, meh ... all I want is a logical answer that makes sense, and not some justification / job creation for some black art / mumbo jumbo reason.
In my defence ... THIS Was the bit that I missed ... and you'll notice this because I've assumed that the MAF sits in a solid tube of fixed size. As such, the explanation is valid and makes perfect sense. That'll teach me to skim read and miss important bits :rolleyes: Missed this before my last post. 😜. If you're really interested then the main reason for needing a map for a decat is with less back pressure there*is less energy needed for the turbo to spool. This in turn means you need less wasregate duty to achieve the boost levels targeted . so if this is not adjusted for you are likely to overboost. This I suppose is possible to control with a manual boost controller but it's not really the best way to deal with the problem. |
So to get this right:
To fit an induction kit - no remap required? To fit a S/Steel exhaust - no remap required? Because the Ecu will adjust the Fuel/Air mixture accordingly? So to play devils advocate, if I had a standard Blob WRX, and I wanted to fit all STI performance parts, I could install Pinks, VF35, STI TMIC, Catless UpPipe, and then I could run the car ON boost fine without risk of engine damage as the Ecu will learn and adjust the Fuel/Air mix. But to gain the benefits of the upgraded parts a remap is required? |
Originally Posted by Rob Day
(Post 11491487)
So to get this right:
To fit an induction kit - no remap required? To fit a S/Steel exhaust - no remap required? Because the Ecu will adjust the Fuel/Air mixture accordingly? So to play devils advocate, if I had a standard Blob WRX, and I wanted to fit all STI performance parts, I could install Pinks, VF35, STI TMIC, Catless UpPipe, and then I could run the car ON boost fine without risk of engine damage as the Ecu will learn and adjust the Fuel/Air mix. But to gain the benefits of the upgraded parts a remap is required? |
well this has made it as clear as mud thanks guys lol bloody interesting read though
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I was waiting for the ecu will learn the new parts and all will be ok comment.
I will try my best to explain why this is bad information. Yes the ecu will learn but it can only still go by the calibration it has already so. The ecu fuels the engine (in basic terms) by using a target A/F/R table. The table uses throttle position and engine load (load = amount of air getting into the combustion chamber) it then looks says ok in this cell i know i need to open the injector at this time, for this long and at this amount of fuel pressure. 1 STI pinks replacing normal wrx injectors, They have different delivery rates at the same fuel pressure so (these are just theoretical figures and are only for comparison) WRX injector supplies 10ml of fuel when it is open for 1 second with a fuel pressure of 1.5 bar. STI pink injector will supply more fuel when opened for the same amount of time at the same fuel pressure. So now we are over fueling and have an A/F ration of 13.5 at cruising speeds the ecu looks at its table and goes hang on we are shooting for 14.7 AFR here so will adjust the fueling accordingly. Brilliant the ecu has now learnt this and will remember what it did and this is what will happen next time we use that cell in the tables. THE ECU CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH OF THIS SO YOU HAVE NOW TAKEN AWAY THE SAFETY MARGIN THE THE ECU LEARNING GIVES YOU. 2. Fitted vf35 The vf35 compressor map is different to the td04 so the way the turbo delivers the charge is different and will happen at a different place in the rev range. So at 50% throttle and engine speed around 3000 rpm (again these figure are just for illustration purposes) a td04 will more than likely give a higher mass of air into the engine than a vf35 as the td04 spools earlier in the rev range. Ecu has table which tells it at this rpm and load we should have .9bar of boost but the old MAP sensor is showing 0.65 bar.. arrrg we have a boost error the ecu then will adjust things to compensate for this again it will learn this in this particular area of the tables. It will then have to do this across the full rev range of the engine and will be constantly adjusting this will give boost spikes and power delivery will not be as it should. The rest of the changed items also contribute to this issue. So, so far the ecu is backing fuel off all the time for over fueling and is constantly working to stop over boost conditions. A car in this condition to most people will drive and pull ok. But there will be boost spikes all over the place and the power will not be what it should be. More than likely less than if you left it alone. The ecu has these learning abilities to adjust for different types of fuel different atmospheric pressure and temps ect and to compensate for failing parts to protect your engine. So now we have an ecu that's at or near its maximum learning capacity and we have a weak fuel pump condition, spark plugs/coil packs starting to fail and you have just filled up with a really bad batch of fuel ect. The ecu now has no way to adjust for these things and either melted pistons or rods through the block will not be very far away. |
lol the mythical self learning ecu, usually a facebook subaru advice dweller.
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i just wanted to know if the car would run ok without the map or if it does run ok does that mean it has been mapped
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Every car is different mate and as it stands no one except the last owner can tell you if it's been mapped or not.
You need to get the car checked out, because your a perfect candidate to become one of so many we have had on here that posts a video of a knocking engine asking what's this noise. ;) I told you before you bought this car to take your time before jumping in with both feet, now your learning the hard way why I said that to you. Now this is the last time i'm going to tell you what to do so pay attention. TAKE IT TO A SUBARU SPECIALIST WITH A ROLLING ROAD AND GET IT CHECKED OUT. :thumb: |
??????????
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Originally Posted by angel1368
(Post 11491634)
i just wanted to know if the car would run ok without the map or if it does run ok does that mean it has been mapped
How lucky do you feel? :Whatever_ In my book, why take a chance. The people telling you 'It will be allright' aren't the ones who will have to shell out for repairs if it turns out you're not so lucky. Are they? |
Originally Posted by ditchmyster
(Post 11491650)
TAKE IT TO A SUBARU SPECIALIST WITH A ROLLING ROAD AND GET IT CHECKED OUT.
:thumb: Oh yeah, TAKE IT TO A SUBARU SPECIALIST WITH A ROLLING ROAD AND GET IT CHECKED OUT. :thumb: |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491622)
So what should it be then? Different combinations of different component upgrades is going to yield different power delivery through the rev range. All parts that are changed for a different type need to be (mapped) calibrated so when the ecu is using said parts for reference then it has the correct info to start with and then means no learning is needed keeping you ecu free to do its learning as per Subaru meant it to. So the injector example fit a larger injector and to get the same amount of fuel injected you need to either reduce fuel pressure or the you could change the time the injector is open. This is done by adjusting the tables in the ROM.
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491622)
How are you going to make adjustments unless you have a RR graph to make adjustments from? You've said "to most people will drive and pull ok" so is this suggesting that a roadside mapper is somehow a little more special and can "feel through the seat" more than the owner of the vehicle? ;) - you can see why I am mildly cynical.
You can even just use excell and create your own graphs ect. Some of the most powerful tuning tools for log interpretation are just excel spreadsheets.
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491622)
What is the "maximum learning capacity" of an ECU?
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491622)
So ... if the fuel pump is underrated ... what ECU changes will be able to compensate for this? If it needs X amount of Fuel, it'll open the injectors for Z amount of time and if not enough comes through ... how can a remap solve this - because as I understand it. next time it'll open it for longer (within the boundaries)? The "problem" in this scenario is the other components being fitted first is it not?
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To OP
If u just want to know if it is mapped then you will need to go somewhere who can read the rom, a tuning company ect. Come see me i will plug in and tell u. Xline - Try reading this http://www.romraider.com/RomRaider/I...eGuideToTuning It will probable answer most of the questions you may have. |
Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491665)
*cough :D
Originally Posted by Blue by You
(Post 11491657)
The people telling you 'It will be allright' aren't the ones who will have to shell out for repairs if it turns out you're not so lucky. Are they?
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Originally Posted by Xline
(Post 11491698)
there's obviously at least one person here that knows what they're talking about and given some decent answers.
Originally Posted by jimbob9875
(Post 11490978)
Keep off boost until mapped and you SHOULD be ok
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Despite what has been said in this thread,the for and against,the pros' and the cons,the do's on the dont's'(only one member has the view of don't so far)'minority'
I am looking forward to self mapping my own car and threads like this one are very informative :thumb: Pretty much like tuning in the old days when cars had carbs, tuning a car to get the best out of it has not changed much! It's still all about timing and fueling with a little turbo boost thrown in but now we do it on a laptop and not a crypton machine. Of corse we know the ecu learns and adjusts accordingly but having a good starting point(map) is key to getting the most out of our cars including longevity. |
Originally Posted by ossett2k2
(Post 11491728)
Pretty much like tuning in the old days when cars had carbs
Now the car has a computer and I have the carbs :lol1: |
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