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-   -   Not Again...Afghanistan ''Friendly Fire'' !!! (https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby-related-4/629959-not-again-afghanistan-friendly-fire.html)

Mitchy260 24 August 2007 01:35 PM

Not Again...Afghanistan ''Friendly Fire'' !!!
 
Yanks at it again .....3 more UK troops :(

BBC NEWS | UK | 'Friendly fire' kills UK soldiers

Fair enough being killed in action by the enemy but not by your allies:(

mrtheedge2u2 24 August 2007 01:52 PM

I swear to you, when I read stuff like this it makes me want to pick up a gun and kill a whole bunch of US soldiers.......... absolute bunch of fukkin clowns

wayne9t9 24 August 2007 05:40 PM

Not just us, they kill Canadians too..
"U.S. fire has mistakenly killed five Canadian soldiers — one last September during intense airstrikes on Taliban strongholds near Kandahar, and four in April 2002 when an American pilot dropped a 500-pound bomb near where the troops were apparently conducting a live-fire exercise." c/p from yahoo news...

Drunken Bungle Whore 24 August 2007 05:52 PM

Who came up with the term "Friendly Fire" anyway! FFS - it's all part of media brainwashing.

Shark Man 24 August 2007 08:30 PM


Originally Posted by Drunken Bungle Whore (Post 7206616)
Who came up with the term "Friendly Fire" anyway! FFS - it's all part of media brainwashing.


Hactually, I was listening to the news on the radio, and the newsreader(ess) said "so called friendly fire".

I think the "so called" bit was an apt slur on the situation :)

Hoppy 24 August 2007 08:51 PM

Nobody can condone such an appalling incident, but look at it another way (as has been reported).

British forces are being overrun by the Taliban, for whatever reason (ill prepared, ill-equipped, caught napping, who knows) but they are in the **** and call for US air support.

By definition British and Taliban forces are going to be in close proximity, with the situation changing by the minute. Hardly surprising that there is collateral damage to Brit soldiers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's a cock-up. It's war. Sh1t happens.

I don't like it any more than anybody else, including the Yanks, but it's easy to see how these things happen in the heat of the moment.

Richard :(

Luminous 24 August 2007 08:54 PM


Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 7207081)
Nobody can condone such an appalling incident, but look at it another way (as has been reported).

British forces are being overrun by the Taliban, for whatever reason (ill prepared, ill-equipped, caught napping, who knows) but they are in the **** and call for US air support.

By definition British and Taliban forces are going to be in close proximity, with the situation changing by the minute. Hardly surprising that there is collateral damage to Brit soldiers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's a cock-up. It's war. Sh1t happens.

I don't like it any more than anybody else, including the Yanks, but it's easy to see how these things happen in the heat of the moment.

Richard :(

nicely put...I honestly do not think there are US soldiers out there that think lets just kill a few of our allies for fun. If we don't like their airstrikes, then we should have the kit out there to not need theirs....

Nido 24 August 2007 09:21 PM


Originally Posted by Hoppy (Post 7207081)
Nobody can condone such an appalling incident, but look at it another way (as has been reported).

British forces are being overrun by the Taliban, for whatever reason (ill prepared, ill-equipped, caught napping, who knows) but they are in the **** and call for US air support.

By definition British and Taliban forces are going to be in close proximity, with the situation changing by the minute. Hardly surprising that there is collateral damage to Brit soldiers caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's a cock-up. It's war. Sh1t happens.

I don't like it any more than anybody else, including the Yanks, but it's easy to see how these things happen in the heat of the moment.

Richard :(

Agree with the sentiment, but for some reason it seems to "happen in the heat of the moment" a lot more for the Americans than it does to anybody else.

Let's not forget during Gulf war 1 more British were killed by Americans than by Iraqis. That's a pretty damning statistic whichever you look at it.

I have had experience of the "gung-ho" trigger happy American attitude and it's just incredible - that's what kills people :(

andythejock01wrx 25 August 2007 12:29 AM


Originally Posted by Nido (Post 7207180)
Agree with the sentiment, but for some reason it seems to "happen in the heat of the moment" a lot more for the Americans than it does to anybody else.

Let's not forget during Gulf war 1 more British were killed by Americans than by Iraqis. That's a pretty damning statistic whichever you look at it.

I have had experience of the "gung-ho" trigger happy American attitude and it's just incredible - that's what kills people :(

There are more USAF(etc) friendly fire incidents because they have more planes in the theatre - a lot more ! According to the Beeb news tonight, we have only 12 aircraft suitable for the ground support role in Afghanistan, so 90% of air support comes from the Americans !

As above, it's worth remembering that US air strikes have saved many a British squaddie, and with them being used as "heavy artillery" when the Taleban are within a ball-hair's width away, sadly, it's gonna happen.

Andy Mc

Prasius 25 August 2007 08:52 AM

I've had to "correct" people on this a few times yesterday, no doubt I'll be doing it again as well.

This is, in all likelyhood (not knowing all the facts because I'm not in work!), was a simple case of the close air support being a little too close and nothing else, as a few others here have said. Its unlikely to be like the cases where ANG pilots shoot up Scimitars and the like because they don't know what Iraqi tanks look like ;)

You call CAS because you really need it.. not because your getting bored of firing bullets at them ;) Theres always the risk of it landing a bit close because thats the nature of what your asking the pilot to do.

Frankly, seeing as British troops are calling in Close Air Support missions every single day (it is a proper war and everything.. not that anyone else seems to notice), I'm surprised it hasn't happened before.

Jaybird-UK 25 August 2007 09:21 AM


Originally Posted by mrtheedge2u2 (Post 7205992)
I swear to you, when I read stuff like this it makes me want to pick up a gun and kill a whole bunch of US soldiers.......... absolute bunch of fukkin clowns

What a stupid thing to say.

mrtheedge2u2 25 August 2007 11:42 AM

Not stupid at all, just sick of cowboys killing our own soldiers and then returning home to collect medals of honour and purple hearts etc etc

Jaybird-UK 25 August 2007 12:17 PM


Originally Posted by mrtheedge2u2 (Post 7205992)
I swear to you, when I read stuff like this it makes me want to pick up a gun and kill a whole bunch of US soldiers.......... absolute bunch of fukkin clowns



Originally Posted by mrtheedge2u2
Not stupid at all, just sick of cowboys killing our own soldiers and then returning home to collect medals of honour and purple hearts etc etc

:cuckoo: :cuckoo: :cuckoo:

So you think its OK to go kill a 'bunch' of soldiers at random because of an accident of war?

f1_fan 25 August 2007 12:22 PM

Come on people let's not let common sense and simple facts get in the way of another great anti-American post :Whatever_

Luan Pra bang 25 August 2007 04:09 PM

Why can't the combined might of the British and American armies with their excellent trained soldiers and first class equipment beat a handful of cave dwelling former sheep herders with an AK-47 to share and 2 bullets each. You would think that the Air support would not be necesary.

WRX_Dazza 25 August 2007 04:56 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 7208587)
Why can't the combined might of the British and American armies with their excellent trained soldiers and first class equipment beat a handful of cave dwelling former sheep herders with an AK-47 to share and 2 bullets each. You would think that the Air support would not be necesary.

:thumb:

Iwan 25 August 2007 06:27 PM

It cracks me up that people think we can even win in Afghanistan, does nobody even remember the way the USSR tried and failed. Its history repeating itsself, Afghans don't like each other, and they like foreigners even less.

Nice comment above about wanting to get revenge by killing some random americans, sounds like you'd be a perfect recruit for some fundamentalist islamic group!

turboman786 25 August 2007 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by WRX_Dazza (Post 7208678)
:thumb:

And the answer to the question is?

mrtheedge2u2 25 August 2007 11:26 PM

Ok, ok..... not random soldiers..... just the flying donkeys who drop the bombs etc on our soldiers........... I wouldnt give 1 of our boys for 50 US donkey soldiers......

Luminous 25 August 2007 11:32 PM

Afghanistan.....lets think about this one.

It has a whole load of dead beats as a population. Eliminating the population with our high tech kit would be easy. However, trying to fight an enemy which refuses to wear a uniform is hard. Made even harder as many of the "good guys" don't wear a uniform either.

You see a high tech well equipped patrol approach that you cannot beat, all you do is drop your weapons and walk around. The British and Yanks drive past knowing no different. You see a patrol you think you can take on, then you pick up weapons and shoot.

Its just so impossibly hard working out who to shoot at. Not to mention that these people have few loyalties, and will change sides for just a little payment. Add to that their stable income is growing heroin poppies, which we won't allow, but that Taliban will and you can start to see what a mess it is.

I am just dumbfounded at how well we are actually doing. Can we win? If we do its going to be hard. We have to give them an economy, as their current economy is one based on drugs which is clearly incompatible with us!

Leslie 26 August 2007 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by f1_fan (Post 7208309)
Come on people let's not let common sense and simple facts get in the way of another great anti-American post :Whatever_

I don't think it should be so much anti American as anti having our men killed by their allies!

Les :(

andythejock01wrx 26 August 2007 06:04 PM


Originally Posted by f1_fan (Post 7208309)
Come on people let's not let common sense and simple facts get in the way of another great anti-American post :Whatever_

Quite !

andythejock01wrx 26 August 2007 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by Luminous (Post 7209431)
Afghanistan.....lets think about this one.

It has a whole load of dead beats as a population. Eliminating the population with our high tech kit would be easy. However, trying to fight an enemy which refuses to wear a uniform is hard. Made even harder as many of the "good guys" don't wear a uniform either.

You see a high tech well equipped patrol approach that you cannot beat, all you do is drop your weapons and walk around. The British and Yanks drive past knowing no different. You see a patrol you think you can take on, then you pick up weapons and shoot.

Its just so impossibly hard working out who to shoot at. Not to mention that these people have few loyalties, and will change sides for just a little payment. Add to that their stable income is growing heroin poppies, which we won't allow, but that Taliban will and you can start to see what a mess it is.

I am just dumbfounded at how well we are actually doing. Can we win? If we do its going to be hard. We have to give them an economy, as their current economy is one based on drugs which is clearly incompatible with us!

Good post, bright one. :)

Prasius 26 August 2007 09:00 PM

We can "win" afghanistan if we drop this stupid idea of thrusting "democracy" on them, and allow them to return to their pre-soviet era (i.e. post-soviet encourage ousting of the Afghan King, not the Soviet "military intervention") form of governance which comprised of locally formed jurgas.

I could go into a very long and probably dull post regarding the problems, both political and military that we are facing with Afghanistan; but I won't bore you all with it!

Whilst some of the problems we face in Afghanistan are mirrored by those that were faced by the Soviets (and for that matter, by us the first time we "did" Afghanistan), the enemy we are facing is not the same.

Must recommend "The Bear went over the mountain" to anyone who has any interest in the problems associated with military operations in Afghanistan. Certainly should be essential reading for any NCO/Officer who deploys there - would be nice if someone in PJHQ/MOD read it though... ;)

andythejock01wrx 26 August 2007 11:46 PM


Originally Posted by Prasius (Post 7210557)

Must recommend "The Bear went over the mountain" to anyone who has any interest in the problems associated with military operations in Afghanistan. Certainly should be essential reading for any NCO/Officer who deploys there - would be nice if someone in PJHQ/MOD read it though... ;)

Sounds worth a read Prasius. Available in all good book stores ?

AndytJ

Leslie 27 August 2007 11:40 AM


Originally Posted by Prasius (Post 7210557)
We can "win" afghanistan if we drop this stupid idea of thrusting "democracy" on them, and allow them to return to their pre-soviet era (i.e. post-soviet encourage ousting of the Afghan King, not the Soviet "military intervention") form of governance which comprised of locally formed jurgas.

I could go into a very long and probably dull post regarding the problems, both political and military that we are facing with Afghanistan; but I won't bore you all with it!

Whilst some of the problems we face in Afghanistan are mirrored by those that were faced by the Soviets (and for that matter, by us the first time we "did" Afghanistan), the enemy we are facing is not the same.

Must recommend "The Bear went over the mountain" to anyone who has any interest in the problems associated with military operations in Afghanistan. Certainly should be essential reading for any NCO/Officer who deploys there - would be nice if someone in PJHQ/MOD read it though... ;)

I certainly agree with that. The present day excuse since, the original reason was proved to be a bunch of lies, for arracking Iraq was to get rid of SH and force them into democratic government which they do not understand and is not part of their tradition anyway. They are used to feudal style government and thar was the only was to control the three tribes in Iraq anyway.

I think Prasius's point about Afghanistan is just the same and is a correct assessment of the situation. However they want to run their country, it will not work to try to force a style of government on them that they do not naturally want. Why can't they learn from the experiences of the Russians who had to throw the towel in anyway.

Who would really want our present so called democracy anyway as promoted by our present authorities who do not take a blind bit of notice of what the electorate really want and effectively ignore the House, but only to attain absolute control of us all, and the Eu is at least as bad in that respect.

Les :(

Prasius 27 August 2007 01:09 PM


Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx (Post 7210985)
Sounds worth a read Prasius. Available in all good book stores ?

AndytJ

It was originally published by the Soviet version of Sandhurst back in the early 1990's, and was republished by the USMC Officer training place (can't remember the name of it!) in the mid-90's with a companion book called "The other side of the mountain" which approached the issues the Mujahadin faced in a similar way (but not as good, nor as relevant, as the Soviet original).

You can order it on Amazon if you want a hardcopy, although there are plenty of copies floating around on P2P and torrent.

Only thing I'll suggest is try and get your head around Soviet map marking before/while your reading it, as the maps are essential for understanding and they're obviously very different from the NATO standards.

The most frustrating thing you'll find when reading it, the conclusions especially, is that the planners, or those civil servants who decide these things, have learnt nothing from the Soviet experience.

The Snug Rhino 27 August 2007 02:07 PM


Originally Posted by Luan Pra bang (Post 7208587)
Why can't the combined might of the British and American armies with their excellent trained soldiers and first class equipment beat a handful of cave dwelling former sheep herders with an AK-47 to share and 2 bullets each. You would think that the Air support would not be necesary.



typical UK soilder has been fighting for a few years and was doing his GCSE's (which he probably failed) before that - typical Afgan soilder was using an AK47 at 5 years old. did no one watch rambo 3? they beat the Russians with horses and catapults!

spireite 27 August 2007 08:02 PM


Originally Posted by Luminous (Post 7207093)
nicely put...I honestly do not think there are US soldiers out there that think lets just kill a few of our allies for fun. If we don't like their airstrikes, then we should have the kit out there to not need theirs....


better still why dont we pull out all and let the yanks "friendly fire their own "

Prasius 27 August 2007 09:02 PM


Originally Posted by The Snug Rhino (Post 7211770)
typical UK soilder has been fighting for a few years and was doing his GCSE's (which he probably failed) before that

:Whatever_

I could suggest the typical UK Civillian is a spineless coward.... but hardly fair, or correct.


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