If you don't want faster spool more torque and more power don't have methanol ...ok Shaun we all no for whatever reason your methist ... ?...
But if you like going noticeably quicker .... Get methed up mate and don't listen to him he's a methist lol |
Methist.... WTF is that! :D
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I think he means mentalist or menthalist! :D
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Originally Posted by juggers
(Post 10519673)
Mine retained the oem response, but with much greater power than the standard setup.
How a about the power delivery, is it still as linear and as broad a powerband as standard? |
Not racist, ageist etc
Methist ;) |
2 Attachment(s)
Just thought i would give an update to the thread after doing some work on a new Twin Scroll Turbo with Owen Developments and Chevron Motorsport.
We tried a couple of specs before finalising on my current one, i was looking to retain the OEM spool of the VF37 yet gain the top end of a turbo in the 450BHP range, i'm very happy with what we have ended up with. My engine has been built with a high compression 9.1:1 to sharpen up off boost throttle response, so on pure v-power we are having to take a bit too much timing out to generate really good power and take full advantage of the turbo, it's probably worth a revisit to this with some octane booster to get the timing back (car was mapped the night before TOTB so didnt have time to try it, but we took 6 degrees out from my previous v-power+NF map), so on V-power we are circa 420BHP, 430lbft. A standard compresion engine on v-power should work better on pure V-power IMHO. On a 20% mix of methanol with v-power it comes alive, it's producing at the wheels using Delta Dash 387BHP @ 6371rpm, 395lbft @ 3906rpm, this equates to aprox 468BHP and 478lbft at the flywheel. At the moment the samco inlet hose i have is collapsing at the top end, so there is more to come from the turbo up top when that is sorted, we are also only using 50% waste gate duty mid range and are limiting the boost to the max it's safe to run on the OEM ECU with stock MAP sensor, the turbo will give more mid range than this. In 4th gear it is producing 1 BAR of boost at 2900rpm, 1.85 BAR of boost at 3500rpm, it's holding 1.6 BAR at 6000rpm, 1.55 BAR at 7000rpm, even with the dodgy inlet hose. It hits those same figures in 3rd gear too with the use of MegaRom. The really nice thing about this turbo setup is the way it drives, which you never really get a fair impresion of from full throttle dyno runs. Response is fanatastic, and what's really nice is the way you can be cruising in 6th and just boot it, there is no waiting for spool at normal motorway crusing speeds, it just picks it's heals up and goes. I suspect based on previous experience, putting the car on a rolling road will bring the turbo spool 500rpm earlier than it shows on EcuTek Delta Dash Road Dyno, i'll try and get a run on a well known rolling road soon to put some plots up, but for now here is my road dyno results. Dyno Test: 4th ================== Maximum Wheel Power: 387.3 BHP @ 6371 RPM Maximum Wheel Torque: 395.7 LbFt @ 3906 RPM Power to weight ratio: 243.6 BHP per ton Terminal velocity due to power: 199.5 mph In Gear Acceleration: 40 - 60mph = 2.0 seconds 50 - 70mph = 1.8 seconds 60 - 80mph = 1.9 seconds 70 - 90mph = 2.1 seconds Dyno Test: 3rd ============== Maximum Wheel Power: 399.4 BHP @ 6995 RPM Maximum Wheel Torque: 387.5 LbFt @ 4969 RPM Power to weight ratio: 251.2 BHP per ton Terminal velocity due to power: 201.6 mph In Gear Acceleration: 30 - 50mph = 1.7 seconds 40 - 60mph = 1.4 seconds 50 - 70mph = 1.5 seconds 60 - 80mph = 1.7 seconds Speed per 1000 RPM: 1st: 5.3 mph 2nd: 8.1 mph 3rd: 11.0 mph 4th: 14.4 mph 5th: 18.2 mph 6th: 22.9 mph Maximum Speed per Gear: 1st: 43.6 mph 2nd: 66.7 mph 3rd: 90.0 mph 4th: 117.7 mph 5th: 149.2 mph 6th: 188.1 mph Total Vehicle Mass: 1590kg Drag Co-efficient: 0.37 Frontal Area: 2.20 square metres Wheel/Tyre Setup: 235/45/17 Tyre Diameter: 643mm Tyre Circumference: 2021mm Engine Rev Limit: 8200 Test gear: 3 and 4 Max Speed of gear: 90MPH and 118 mph Air Intake Temp: 17°C (62°F) Atmospheric Pressure: 1.01 bar Attachment 67756 Attachment 67757 Basic engine spec info: MY05 JDM STi with stock heads and cams etc, rebuilt as a 2.1Litre at 9.1:1 compression. Owen developments Twin Scroll Turbo Chevron Motorsport TMIC 800cc EcuTek Injectors BRD large MAF tube with K&N filter Walbro 255 fuel pump Stock FPR Samco inlet hose Stock ECU remapped by Bob Rawle using EcuTek Magarom Engine rebuilt by myself and Chevron Motorsport So there is now another Twin Scroll turbo option on the market. |
1 Attachment(s)
Also, just to add to the intercooler debate info, this is the Charge Temperature reading from my Chevron TMIC on the above 4th gear pull. With 1.85 BAR peak and 1.6+ BAR held charge temps go up just 6 degrees C.
Attachment 67758 |
John that sounds like my dream setup, my cars currently runing 405bhp and 385ltb if I can get an extra 30ltb and a few more bhp and not sacrifice the spool up that would be great.
What turbo is it and how much? |
The turbo is a new development done specificaly for me, so wont be on the Owen website with a part number yet.
Get in touch with Chevron Motorsport in Stafford, they will be able to help with supply queries regarding pricing etc. Just mention you want to talk about the turbo done for me and they will be able to help. |
Interesting results John. :)
The only area I would tend to compare from your data currently (until you get your arse down to Surrey Rolling Road for a dyno run) is that of acceleration (assuming all things being equal). Yours 40 - 60mph = 2.0 50 - 70mph = 1.8 60 - 80mph = 1.9 70 - 90mph = 2.1 Mine 40 - 60mph = 2.3 50 - 70mph = 1.9 60 - 80mph = 1.8 70 - 90mph = 2.0 This type of data is always good to look at. 50-90 look in the ballpark, which based on your road dyno results (which BHP wise appear very close to mine). The obvious area of pick-up is your 40-60 area. .3s quicker than mine, but then you're running more capacity, higher compression and higher octane fuel. Since mine is only running VPower at the moment it's got to be worth me giving Meth a go now, however hard I try to resist! :D I still think that the LM450 is an awesome turbo for a 2ltr. |
Edit I just read your engine build which is a 2.1 hence the extra torquees
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Originally Posted by juggers
(Post 10732761)
Edit I just read your engine build which is a 2.1 hence the extra torquees
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Originally Posted by Shaun
(Post 10732818)
You quoted me but referenced John's engine I assume, because mine isn't a 2.1ltr.
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Originally Posted by juggers
(Post 10732838)
My bad :D
When you consider I'm running a smaller engine, lower compression and lower octane fuel..... ;) |
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
(Post 10732448)
Also, just to add to the intercooler debate info, this is the Charge Temperature reading from my Chevron TMIC on the above 4th gear pull. With 1.85 BAR peak and 1.6+ BAR held charge temps go up just 6 degrees C.
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Originally Posted by Shaun
(Post 10732677)
Since mine is only running VPower at the moment it's got to be worth me giving Meth a go now, however hard I try to resist! :D Do my eyes deceive me?! Shaun considering Methanol!:D |
Resistance is futile!!!
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Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 10732858)
thats an interesting result, 6 degrees seems to equate to 50% increase in a single pull, dread to think how multiple pulls would affect it.
SRR are shut at the moment shaun, I'll get a run done soon. What really impresses with this setup is the spool and responsivenes, when I get home I'll post a comparison of my VF37 on race fuel, that will give you a good idea of how good this setup is. |
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
(Post 10732930)
What really impresses with this setup is the spool and responsivenes
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Originally Posted by johnfelstead
(Post 10732930)
LOL you can't use maths like that, a 6 degree increase on a pull like that is very good performance for any intercooler.
SRR are shut at the moment shaun, I'll get a run done soon. What really impresses with this setup is the spool and responsivenes, when I get home I'll post a comparison of my VF37 on race fuel, that will give you a good idea of how good this setup is. |
2 Attachment(s)
Here is my current Owen Developments Turbo setup compared to how the engine was previously with my VF37 turbo on my 2.1 engine, run with a mix of race fuel (33%) and V-Power.
On Zens dyno it produced 399lbft @ 3550rpm, 354BHP @ 5925rpm with the VF37. Attachment 67759 Here is the waste gate duty plot, to show you how much more this turbo could be producing if we could go past the limit of the OEM MAP sensor. Attachment 67760 |
John,
I'm not sure what that duty graph proves to be honest mate. My car requires less duty than you run, yet it produces more boost than yours. My last map alteration held .1bar more boost and didn't make any more power. More boost does not always equal more power. Even at 7k rpm. mine is only running 60% duty. Between 4k - 5k rpm it runs 55% going doing to 49%. Minimum is 45% @ 4756 rpm. Peak is 1.83bar and it still holds 1.7bar past 7k. However... the more and more I'm wondering what difference a better fuel will make, to how this LM450 may end up responding. Unless I'm missing something.... which with me is entirely going to be the case! :D |
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
(Post 10733277)
On Zens dyno it produced 399lbft @ 3550rpm, 354BHP @ 5925rpm with the VF37.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/n...37Racefuel.jpg |
The waste gate duty plot is just there to illustrate the potential mid range, as you say, up top giving the turbo more duty wont equate to more power if the turbo is at it's peak flow.
When Bob had finished mapping and we popped the bonnet to remove all the det cans etc, he instantly said ah that makes sense, he had noticed the tell tale signs of the inlet pipe collapsing, which is slugging the top end, a quick squeeze of the pipe showed how rubbish it is. :D You could see marks on the inlet hose where it had gone out of shape. It should be interesting to see how the top end alters with a decent inlet pipe in place. |
Gotcha! :)
Get it sorted then! ;) |
BTW.... have you got a log of your VPower map spool vs Meth map spool. That would be very interesting.
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2 Attachment(s)
Meth Map boost curve
Attachment 67761 V-Power boost curve. Attachment 67762 I was logging a lot of params on this run so the trace looks a bit pointy, will redo this later but you should see spool is almost identical, bob gave it a bit more boost top end on methanol, the turbo could flow the same if we wanted to on v-power. Once the inlet pipe is sorted and i stick a bit of NF in there we will do another mapping session and get a bit more out of the v-power map, we were concentrating on the meth map so i could get up to TOTB and run there safely. I wanted to run without any octane booster on v-power, but i think the reduction in ignition due to high compression means it will benefit from a splash, so we can then up the ignition a few degrees and pick up a bit more response on v-power. It's all very eary days, Bob has had very little time to map this so far, should be really good with the inlet pipe sorted and some more tweeks. |
It's worth adding that at the moment i have no Intercooler Water Sprays working as we removed the water tank to fit a catch can, i plan to fit a Spec C tank in the boot. It also has no heat shield on the turbo, we will be fitting a turbo blanket soon. So TMIC cooling asistance is none existant. It also has no cool air feed to the air filter, or any heat shielding to reduce under bonnet temps, so your worst case scenario really!
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Looks good that John, Was impressed when you said of the 6deg increase on that chevron top mount when I spoke on sunday, Looks a well made bit of kit too :thumb:
Good overall result on Sunday too, Even though you said you were driving like a Cnut :D |
Originally Posted by johnfelstead
(Post 10732428)
On a 20% mix of methanol with v-power it comes alive, it's producing at the wheels using Delta Dash 387BHP @ 6371rpm, 395lbft @ 3906rpm, this equates to aprox 468BHP and 478lbft at the flywheel.
At the moment the samco inlet hose i have is collapsing at the top end, so there is more to come from the turbo up top when that is sorted, we are also only using 50% waste gate duty mid range and are limiting the boost to the max it's safe to run on the OEM ECU with stock MAP sensor, the turbo will give more mid range than this. In 4th gear it is producing 1 BAR of boost at 2900rpm, 1.85 BAR of boost at 3500rpm, it's holding 1.6 BAR at 6000rpm, 1.55 BAR at 7000rpm, even with the dodgy inlet hose. It hits those same figures in 3rd gear too with the use of MegaRom. John, Great results, but I'm just curious to know what boost you intend running, if you're already 1.85bar in the mid' range ? Wouldn't 50% WG duty cycle be mainly down to the strength of the WG used ? Mark. |
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