Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934135)
J
In any case, regardless of how they voted in the past, as Theresa May has just proved, MPs are entitled to change their minds. The Lib Dems are more than entitled to run their GE campaign with the manifesto pledge to reverse article 50 and given they blocked the vote in the first place, they're also being consistent. If the public back them, then they would have a mandate from the public to reverse article 50 (assuming it can be reversed!). That IS democracy! I doubt they will succeed, particularly without proportional representation, but democratically it's a possibility! |
Originally Posted by jonc
(Post 11934141)
Ok, your right, my mistake, I should say a Westminster majority. But Lib Dems have already said they respect the results of the referendum and the will of the people, so even if the Lib Dems do get in (highly unlikely), they will not go against the results of the referendum but subject the UK to another referendum(s) on the deal(s) they negotiate. SNP will also respect the results as it gives them the "material change" to campaign for an independent Scotland.
Incidentally, I'm also sure the Tory pledge of no rise to income tax and NI during the parliament term will no longer be in their manifesto, so you can be sure those tax rises that the government had to go back on in the last budget will be back on the cards for the Autumn budget if the Tories win again! |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934143)
A politicians job is to act on behalf of their constituents, the people voted and politicians have a duty to enact that, whether they agree with it personally or not.
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Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934146)
Agreed! So it stands that MPs in remain seats should continue to back remain because its what their constituents want and not give in to party whips!
Now that has happened their job is to get the best deal they can for their constituents. Spending time trying to block whats is fixed does nothing to aid there constituents and just wastes the limited time available which could well mean a worse deal is achieve so there actions will negatively affect their constituents. |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934152)
No, the majority have spoken and the choice was made. The vote is done and there is no changing that. At the time their role was to try to convince people how to vote.
Now that has happened their job is to get the best deal they can for their constituents. Spending time trying to block whats is fixed does nothing to aid there constituents and just wastes the limited time available which could well mean a worse deal is achieve so there actions will negatively affect their constituents. |
Originally Posted by neil-h
(Post 11934154)
Never changed you're mind? Maybe realised something wasn't such a bright idea after all?
But it's all irrelevant. Accept the majority decision and work it, not fight it. |
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934145)
Theresa May say there is no way she would call an early general election - is she sticking to that? You think that because the Lib they said they want a second referendum given no possibility of a general election, they HAVE to stick to that pledge now there is a general election on the cards? They can no say whatever they want in their election manifesto, including a second referendum or complete reversal of article 50! They can fight the election on any grounds they want to, its up to the people to decide who to vote for!
Incidentally, I'm also sure the Tory pledge of no rise to income tax and NI during the parliament term will no longer be in their manifesto, so you can be sure those tax rises that the government had to go back on in the last budget will be back on the cards for the Autumn budget if the Tories win again! Whilst we derive some enjoyment in discussing the duplicitous nature of politics, let's stick with reality; the Lib Dems won't be doing any of the things you've mentioned. I seriously doubt the electorate will have any appetite for another referendum on the EU after a General Election. |
Originally Posted by jonc
(Post 11934159)
It is highly doubtful that the Lib Dems are able to do anything to stop Brexit since in order to reverse the triggering of Article 50 it would require a majority Parliamentary vote like the vote that invoked it. If the Lib Dems are going to campaign on reversing Brexit, they are most certainly going to lose the election and lose what little seats they have in Westminster against a growing support for leaving the EU. And if the Lib Dems do change their minds, well then they're no better than the Tories.
Whilst we derive some enjoyment in discussing the duplicitous nature of politics, let's stick with reality; the Lib Dems won't be doing any of the things you've mentioned. I seriously doubt the electorate will have any appetite for another referendum on the EU after a General Election. There was a Woman from Leeds interviewed on the news last night, she voted to leave but said that things were getting more expensive now and people were changing their minds about Brexit, so she would probably vote for Lib Dems! I don't know how widespread those feelings are, but I'm sure there are more than a few families across the country starting to feel the squeeze of late! The main point though, is up to now, all the statements about "accepting the will of the people" and all that were made on the basis of no chance of a second referendum or election. Similarly, the public acceptance of Brexit was somewhat on the basis of there is nothing you can do about it now, we just have to accept it. Now with a general election in June, we've got a whole new ball game - there is now something we can do about it! Over the next seven weeks, people will start to think again as we now essentially have a vote on the kind of Brexit we want, including no Brexit! Make no mistake, this election is only going to boil down to Brexit policy because its by far the biggest decision that's going to affect the country for generations! Health, Education and the other standard topics pale somewhat into insignificance and can anyway be addressed in the next parliament post Brexit whereas Brexit is a one time only thing! In some ways, its a very good move for public acceptance of Brexit - The referendum was really too close to call and has left the public divided and Theresa May can say "its time to pull together" all she want's, the fact is half the country are not happy with the result and certainly don't want the kind of hard Brexit she is pushing for. Now we essentially have a chance to vote for the kind of Brexit we get and I think people will be much more accepting of the result of this election than they were for the non binding referendum full of lies (on both sides) with no clear view of what Brexit meant and being enacted by an unelected prime minister! |
The wee mad woman is throwing her party into the mix.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...at-passed.html |
Originally Posted by stevebt
(Post 11934167)
The wee mad woman is throwing her party into the mix.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...at-passed.html SNP have everything to loose, and nothing to gain, well 3 seats only lol |
PM 'won't change her position' on TV debates Laura Kuenssberg BBC political editor Posted at 14:41 A Number 10 source says the prime minister won't be changing her position on the TV debates, despite ITV announcing it will hold a leaders' debate in the run up to the general election. |
Originally Posted by stevebt
(Post 11934167)
The wee mad woman is throwing her party into the mix.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...at-passed.html and you believe this? |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934157)
The vote happened, accept it. I keep hearing people say o lots of people have change there mind, yet i don't know anyone who has?
But it's all irrelevant. Accept the majority decision and work it, not fight it. |
Originally Posted by neil-h
(Post 11934183)
Why? If there was a democratic option to allow you to overturn something you believe is fundamentally wrong for the country, wouldn't you take it?
We live in a democracy, the majority spoke, stop trying to force your minority ways on people. p.s. that last sentence was a bit tounge in cheeky lol |
Originally Posted by stevebt
(Post 11934167)
The wee mad woman is throwing her party into the mix.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...at-passed.html We already know what is the most likely outcome, so it's irrelevant. The Tories will have an increased majority, how big, who knows. Lots of northern Labour MPs are already stating they won't run for re election in fear of being beaten. So they know the local feelings towards them. |
Originally Posted by andy97
(Post 11934193)
Let's hear more of these comments. It will be the end of Labour, who would be blamed on breaking up the UK.
We already know what is the most likely outcome, so it's irrelevant. The Tories will have an increased majority, how big, who knows. Lots of northern Labour MPs are already stating they won't run for re election in fear of being beaten. So they know the local feelings towards them. |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934186)
it was voted on and a choice was made. you can't just call a revote till you get the result you want. It was perfectly clear it was a one vote only deal.
We live in a democracy, the majority spoke, stop trying to force your minority ways on people. p.s. that last sentence was a bit tounge in cheeky lol This majority you speak of was a very tiny majority. Its fair to say that the Brexiteers wouldn't have given up if the vote had gone the other way by a similar margin, and so they shouldn't and neither will or should the remainers! In a democracy, you might have to accept a decision, but you don't have to give up your fight to change it! It might take 40 years to change, it might take a year (e.g. council tax), but no decision is ever final in a democracy :thumb: |
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934198)
In a democracy, nothing is ever a done deal! We voted in a referendum 40 years ago to join the EU! By your logic, we shouldn't have had the leave referendum because it was decided 40 years ago and you should live with it! Anything can be overturned and changed if there is enough public demand for it!
This majority you speak of was a very tiny majority. Its fair to say that the Brexiteers wouldn't have given up if the vote had gone the other way by a similar margin, and so they shouldn't and neither will or should the remainers! In a democracy, you might have to accept a decision, but you don't have to give up your fight to change it! It might take 40 years to change, it might take a year (e.g. council tax), but no decision is ever final in a democracy :thumb: A majority of 1million +, majority is 1 vote, so it wasn't even a tiny majority. |
Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934198)
In a democracy, nothing is ever a done deal! We voted in a referendum 40 years ago to join the EEC! By your logic, we shouldn't have had the leave referendum because it was decided 40 years ago and you should live with it! Anything can be overturned and changed if there is enough public demand for it!
This majority, A MAJORITY NON THE LESS. you speak of was a very tiny majority. Its fair to say that the Brexiteers wouldn't have given up if the vote had gone the other way by a similar margin, and so they shouldn't and neither will or should the remainers! In a democracy, you might have to accept a decision, but you don't have to give up your fight to change it! It might take 40 years to change, it might take a year (e.g. council tax), but no decision is ever final in a democracy :thumb: The UK hasn't left yet, you don't know how great it will be to be out of the EU so let's wait 40 years, come back and make an informed decision :) |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934199)
and thats where your wrong, we never voted to join the EU, we voted to join a trade agreement.
A majority of 1million +, majority is 1 vote, so it wasn't even a tiny majority.
Originally Posted by andy97
(Post 11934201)
Edited for you.
The UK hasn't left yet, you don't know how great it will be to be out of the EU so let's wait 40 years, come back and make an informed decision :) |
Originally Posted by andy97
(Post 11934201)
Edited for you.
The UK hasn't left yet, you don't know how great it will be to be out of the EU so let's wait 40 years, come back and make an informed decision :) |
Originally Posted by neil-h
(Post 11934205)
How do you know it'll be great?
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Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934203)
What we joined has certainly changed over the years. It's been shaped and changed in accordance to the needs of the UK and the other member states as determined by each members respective elected governments, but fundamentally its still what we joined 40 years ago! But its fundamentally because things change over time, that no decision should ever be permanent, be it the decision to join the EU or indeed the decision to leave it!
You're right, I don't know, but I'd personally rather not take the risk in finding out! It's also my democratic right to think that way and to campaign to change public opinion :thumb: |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934210)
Eh? it's nothing like what was voted on 40 years ago. it was a pure trade deal back then, nothing to do with political alignment etc.
If it was just a trade deal, then why did we need a referendum? |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934210)
Eh? it's nothing like what was voted on 40 years ago. it was a pure trade deal back then, nothing to do with political alignment etc.
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Originally Posted by Martin2005
(Post 11934212)
If it was just a trade deal, then why did we need a referendum?
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Originally Posted by BMWhere?
(Post 11934213)
Correct, but it was the foundation stone that has become the EU of today and the UK had a bigger say in making it that way than many of the other smaller members! Nothing has ever been forced upon us as we have always held a veto!
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Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934215)
No idea, all i can tell you was thats what the original vote was about.
Clearly it was not. |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934199)
and thats where your wrong, we never voted to join the EU, we voted to join a trade agreement.
A majority of 1million +, majority is 1 vote, so it wasn't even a tiny majority. Actually we never voted to join either. We voted to stay in. |
Originally Posted by Tidgy
(Post 11934216)
A trade deal is a very different kettle of fish to a political alignment/agreement.
Whilst the original idea was only to create a common trade area, many of the subsequent changes have been motivated by a desire to facilitate ease of trading between countries. Open borders so you can move goods between countries without lengthy and costly customs checks. A single currency to avoid costly currency exchange charges, to provide price stability as well as to ease price caparison, benefiting both consumers and businesses. Even freedom of movement of people was about making it easier and cheaper for companies to find skilled workers that just had the added bonus of allowing retired Brits to go and live in sunny Spain! Even common workers rights or health and safety legislation are primarily aimed at creating a level playing field for trading so that companies in one country can't lower their costs by not having to meet the same HS&E standards or forcing their workers to work longer hours with the threat of the sack if they take a day off with the flu! The problem if you have such a free trade agreement as was always envisaged without the necessary political alignment, is that companies will just up sticks and move to the cheapest country to operate in and nobody else can compete. Even with the political alignment, many of the big companies do this anyway - take Cadbury (Kraft) moving production to Poland for example, or many of the car manufacturers opening plants in Eastern Europe. Without the political alignment, this would be happening a lot more and with much smaller companies! |
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