"I'm sorry Mrs Smith, but we shot your husband, we knew the council had invoked the anti terror laws, we thought he was a terrorist and about to put out a bin with the lid slightly open or with the wrong kind of rubbish in it. We had no choice but to shoot him in the head six times"

Where was his bomb? He didnt have a bag with him did he, was it Ross off spooks?

I don't know. I have no idea whether to kill everyone in a Tube carriage, you'd need a bomb bigger than something which could be under your light flimsy jacket strapped to your back. Could the officers see under his jacket and behind him?

I think this enquiry is just to appease public opinion. They will get off with it.
The police almost always get off when accused of a crime. After all, they are upstanding pillars of the community, and can do no wrong. Aren't they?
The police can get away with such things as speeding, reckless, and dangerous driving, parking offences, driving in a pedestrian zone, etc. In fact almost every driving offence you can think of.
They also carry offensive weapons, get away with breaking and entering, property damage, various public order offences, stalking, assault, kidnapping (sorry I mean wrongful arrest), lying in court, and even murder. Is the police just the largest organised crime gang in the country? :)


I know many of the above are done in the course of their duty, and is in the best interest of the public. However, it doesn't give them the right to lie in court, either to get a conviction or to cover up their own mistakes.

Facts are :- he was WRONGLY identified as a terrorist and subsequently executed on a London tube station in front of god knows how many witness's.No one from the police/ security services have yet to put their hands up and take any responsibility for their wrongful actions .

Cheers for pointing that out... but having spent 12 years working as an Armourer gave me a little insight into weaponry and it's use. :smug:

However......
Often when clearing a stoppage, to make safe the weapon, and allow easier access to the breech the magazine/clip is removed as part of the clearing process, thereby unloading he weapon. Once cleared the magazine/clip is refitted thus reloading the weapon, it is then 'cocked' prior to firing. :thumb:

I seem to remember that the man who identified him as a bomber did not have a photo or photofit of the wanted bomber with him. The man watching the house left for a pee before Menezes came out of the house as well I think.

Les

Personally my money is on the witnesses being the ones telling the truth.

The thing that scares me most about this whole disgraceful incident is that not once has anyone from any of the security services stood up and admitted to mistakes having been made from which lessons must be learned, quite the opposite in fact several more senior figures have been quite casual about the fact that it could quite easily happen again :eek:

If Boris Johnson should be remembered for only one thing, it is that he was the one who finally prised Ian Blair from his ivory tower :thumb::luxhello:

Just think long and hard about one small factor. He was an illegal immigrant, who had outstayed his visa and was working ILLEGALY and being paid in cash to avoid detection.

IF he hadn't stayed in the country when his Visa expired, he wouldn't have been on the train on that fateful day.

I'm NOT saying that just because he's an illegal immigrant he somehow deserves what he got, far from it indeed, I'm just making the point that there is a contributary factor in him flouting the law.

At the end of theday, IF I was a spook/SO19 with a radio plugged in my ear telling me to shoot the guy in front of me because he is the suicide bomber who yesterday tried to kill women and children with a bomb that didn't go off, I think I'd have to have faith in the voice in my ear from the control room.

Warning or no warning, those firearms "officers" would have been heroes if that intel would have been correct.


They cannot, and must not, be hung out to dry for following orders.

His immigration status is completely irrelevant, if he had left the country, somebody else could just as easily have been living that flat, and taken that same route to work, with the same resultant consequences :rolleyes:

Whilst you do have a point with regard to information passed on to the firearms officers, there is no justification for the actions of 'Charlie 12', whose own statement of events sounded to me more like the panicked actions of an American smalltown deputy than those of a allegedly highly trained member of a supposedly specialist elite firearms unit :nono:

Correct, but thats assuming the bullet was actually jammed? I think he said it was a misfire (Powder didn't ignite, "duff" bullet)


I have cleared a misfire on a Sig Sauer 226 in under 2 seconds. Personally I would only click-release the mag, not remove it, and pull back the slide, ejecting the round and cocking in one action.

Twas a few years ago, couldn't do it that fast now as I haven't handled a sidearm for over 3 years.

Actually agree with this. As someone pointed out they should have just said sorry, we will cooperate with any investigation. However, if another level of clearance is brought in, if they doubt for a moment what is being said to them then they might make a even more fatal delay.

For example, imagine a jet get hijacked on the way to the US. They will put planes up and no matter how many people are on board they will take it out to prevent another World Trade Centre disaster. A delay in this situation could cost more lives.

I think his illegal status is an issue too as it could well be a factor in him not doing what he was allegedly told to do. As a skilled worker he'd should have been able to get another visa no problem.

It is time this was marked down as what it was, a tragic accident and all involved allowed to move on.

5t.

He wouldn't be dead, so it is relevant!

The chances of another person with dark skin (he was mistaken for one of the bombers because of his "ethnic" appearance) living in the flat and leaving at that exact moment (while the guy on stag was taking a pee) and following the exact same route? Come on!

5t, I personally don't think it is a case of bringing in another level of clearance as such, better selection/training of existing personnel should suffice.

From the court transcripts of the various operatives' testimony, the decision to upgrade him from 'not sure' to 'definite' was taken by somebody within the control room. There is no way that should be allowed to happen again, if the observer on the ground says he is uncertain about an ID, those within the control room should accept that status, until an actual observer on the ground is able to confirm one way or the other.


Even before the World Trade Centre bombings, especially since Lockerbie, there was practically no chance of a terrorist hijacking an international flight, to the US or anywhere else.
If the US government and the FAA had listened to just one of the countless prior warnings about the total lack of security on American domestic flights they had received in the years prior to 2001, the chances of 9/11 even happening in the first place could have been reduced considerably:(

Quite correct, he wouldn't be dead, but somebody else could just as easily benn killed in his stead.

As for his 'dark skin', if the photos in the press are accurate, I have plenty of white English friends whose skin is considerably darker at that time of the year.

Not sure, just going off what's been quoted..

However, the point I was trying to make... realistically, after making the first shot, then getting a stoppage, realising this, then clearing it, reloading/recocking (whatever) for somebody (who is supposedly highly trained/top of their game) who was thinking clearly and rationally should have been enough time to re-assess and realise that he didn't need to pop another FIVE rounds into his head!

I just think it all got a bit 'frenzied' in the officers heads..

The other thing is, about extra levels of clearance, training etc... I'll ask just this question...

If YOU were a firearms officer, you got your target, you'd been given intel, but not yet permission to open fire, but YOU were sure this man IS going to kill people possibly including YOU!? Are you going to wait for permission/further intel before opening fire!? I suspect the answer would be no!

Most people who have served in the military in the last 20 years or so have probably been in a situation where they might potentially have to open fire if the need arose and were armed accordingly. I mean this in a domestic capacity (within the UK), i.e armed guards, close protection (whatever).

Most of these people would likely have been aware that had they shot anybody (and killed them), the first thing that would have happened (after being disarmed) is they'd probably be arrested and treated as a suspect in a murder or manslaughter investigation/trial. Despite this people with lesser training than these officers carry out their respective duties knowing they may have to shoot somebody and deal with the consequences later.

When all said and done, the final responsibility for pulling the trigger and making that decision to do so lies with the person carrying the weapon. This is effectively how it is for the military, I would assume it is the same for the Police... if not, why not!?

Let's look at the background a little here. There had recently been a co-ordinated Islamic terrorist attack in London, which killed 52 people and injured 700. The police were as understandably jumpy as hell about any 'terrorist-related' incidents they might have to attend.

Owing to wrong 'intelligence' they killed a guy in cold blood who they believed to be a terrorist. If he had been a terrorist we would all be thanking them and that would be the end of the story.

However, the police in question have allegedly been perverting the course of justice to avoid being successfully prosecuted, rather than just putting their hands up to making a dreadful mistake. I cannot tolerate police dishonesty and this is the reason why the book needs to be thrown at them. :mad: They obviously need re-training too. Why not set them loose on Abu Hamza?

As for Menendez - it's all a bit unfortunate for him. If the bludger had had a love of law and order himself, he would have returned to Brazil when his visa expired and would be living a lovely life as a black market sparky over there instead of being dead.

It seems to me that - in this instance at least - the police involved are guilty of murder. Not death by misadventure, not manslaughter or any other charge where culpability is discounted.

All i think is......


1. they were told he was the target and he had ruck sack... can't blame the gun men for that.
2. the TARGET ran from the police and didn't stop when ask to.
2a. he was an illegal and should of been here anyway... hence why he ran from the police

3. the day before bombs had gone off.

4. if he were a bomber the gun men would be heroes.




If you were the police what would you have done under those circumstance's????


Its very sad an innocent person got kill, bu 7/7 and 9/11 lots got killed!!



IMO no blame should be on the police, just human error on tracking the wrong person at the start.. hand should be held up to that.

And you sir like the police on the ground that fatefull day are woefully miss-informed.. I would suggest you check your facts before shooting! your mouth off..:thumb:

on which bit?

no ruck sack, never ran, had his hands up when shot while sitting down having just bought a paper.. oh and they never said anything to him..

that doesn't sound as exciting now :(




still the question stands.. what would you have done?

I was going to make a long post as to why the murder of an innocent (as in - not convicted in a court of law) Brazilian was "permitted"", with direct references to the BBC News website, but they seem to have pulled all relevant articles - such as witnesses heard no "Stop - Armed Police" warnings, "they appeared jerky", "the train driver ran away because he thought that they (the police) were gangsters" etc.)!!

They are there, somewhere, but take a little finding :mad:

The spooks are getting spookier :rolleyes:

mb

nice to see you still around Boomer ;)

Based on the intelegence and the bloke in my ear telling me he was the suspect i'd have emptied my 14 shot mag in his head quick smart and still have been pulling the trigger long after that:lol1:
I dont have a problem with the shooters it's the people around/above them that should carry the can.

I think it's disgusting the firearms officers are being held to account. They were doing what they were told to do and act upon 'intelligence'. It is the intelligence officers that picked out the innocent party that are the ones who need to be held to account, not the guys who were told to act on that intelligence and take out who they were told was a suicide bomber.

:thumb:

A lot of assumptions, we will never really know. Saw this video last year sometime:

YouTube - Menezes Murder:"We should give up our freedom for liberty"

Alex Jones is a crackpot but what the women being interviewed said pretty much sums the views of the majority of people.

Personally I think the police did what they were trained to do and told to do on that day however the people feeding them the inteligence should be questions and held accountable.

One story that ran in the early days of this event was that he was a contractor working on the underground and had found wires disconnected pointing to a false flag op and was killed for this info however as the story is no longer available this is most likely conspiracy chatter.

The other theory is that he was being watched and known to the police and probably knew the police or had encounters with them prior to his death (partly confirmed by the officers who were watching him) and due to various cock ups and malpractices was framed up as the wrong person and killed.

As for looking like the media's version of a terrorist, I doubt it - if he was walking down the street I would have no problem in recognising him as being brazilian or rather a non-asian, middle eastern person but then I interact with various ethnic groups through work and in my town so you get the knack of telling these groups aparts.

Whatever the fact it's unfortuante, it backfired on the police and has created a lot of negative press amongst ethnic and non-white british people but also for the officers who are no doubt being used as scape goats to cover some beurocrats arse.