I can't believe some of the posts on here and its a worry that some of you are driving powerful cars,If you really are driving your scoob at 30mph in 4th or 5th gear,i have one word for you (pinking).3rd gear is the gear the car should be in,it may use some more fuel but its better than a snapped con-rod etc.Imsbman is talking sense and some people on here could do a lot worse than going for some advanced driving lessons.Use your tachometer and use the correct gear for the speed you want the vehicle to be going taking into account road conditions,surroundings and speed limit.

I drive in whatever gear my car is happy in. I don't need to look at my speed or tacho to know that. I can feel it and hear it and it requires no brain power to figure out I do it naturally. I personally use my energies trying to figure out what random stuff all the other morons on the road are going to do!

There are lots of good reasons for and against 3rd gear in a 30mph limit and I have found that it depends on the precise circumstances and surroundings. I would certainly support the view that, at times, 3rd gear is a prudent choice even at 40mph.

I think that is the precise point that makes this suggestion stupid. We have the government telling you that if you drive at 30mph, no matter how bad you are, you will never have an accident. Now we have the IAM telling us that if you are in 3rd gear at the time then everything will be fine with the world and no innocent children will die.

In effect all this does is remove personal responsibility. The driver is responsible for judging the safe speed for the road and they are also responsible for judging the correct gear for the conditions. Unfortunately the vast majority of motorists on the road now seem to drive using a formula that they have constructed from what they have seen on TV and what their grandfather told them when they were a kid. In this formula use of the windows, mirrors and brain is only necessary occasionally and then mostly only to establish that they are no further than 2 feet from the car in front.

With this in mind I strongly oppose any sweeping generalisation which implies that it makes the motorist safer on the road. All it actually does is make the idiots more complacent in their ignorance and provides their little minds with more excuses to justify their behaviour.

There is no question that education has a vital role to play in road safety and that it is, generally, overlooked by the law and the general public. There is also no question in my mind that education for a practical skill can not take the form of a short list of points to be followed and this, in my view, is where the approach taken by the IAM goes badly wrong.

This may be wildly inaccurate and perhaps a little annoying to some but my personal view of the IAM is that they are a bunch of old codgers trying to show people how it was when they "were a lad" and how real men did it. Living in a fantasy world, especially when it looks like a Monty Python sketch, is probably at least as dangerous as living in one governed by a few formula.

LOL - they do rather give the impression that they come from an era when string back gloves and chequered flat caps were de-rigor and an advanced driver would own one of these...

http://www.westbarnclassics.co.uk/im...rs/Roverth.jpg

UB:)

<puts hands up>
I drive along in 2nd or 3rd in a 30.


....Of course it has nothing to do with the beautiful noise or the instant throttle response. ;) :D

but then, since doing those last few mods, I have no bottom end left anyway, :rolleyes: so she would struggle in 5th.

Andy

I give up, surely getting some more education is better than thinking you know best :rolleyes: you pass your woefully inadequate test and then tell all the advanced drivers they are talking crap, ho hum

Is that true?

Personally i never get into 5th gear around town and only sometimes into 4th.I'd be doing around 1500 rpm if i did.
Thats doing 35/40 mph.

Obviously this advice is complete nonsense. You cant make a blanket statement like this as all cars are diferently geared and have diferent power/torque curves, power/weight ratios and power delivery charicteristics.

For example take the gear ratios of a UK turbo Impreza and compare it to an STi 5 TypeRA.

At 30MPH the UK turbo in 3rd is doing 3100rpm, 4th is doing 2600rpm.

http://www.btinternet.com/~john.fels...rboRPMGear.JPG

At 30MPH the STi5 TypeRA in 3rd is doing 3600rpm, 4th is doing 3050rpm.

http://www.btinternet.com/~john.fels.../RARPMGear.JPG

Now take into account the engine torque of a 300BHP Impreza like mine, at 3000rpm it has 190Lbft torque at the wheels, so around 250Lbft at the flywheel. Compare that to a Ford Mondeo 1.8 of say 80lbft yet with the same weight and you can see how this is just total nonsense.

http://www.btinternet.com/~john.fels...owertorque.JPG

Taking this thinking to the extreme, all cars sub 250Lbft torque at 3000rpm should be banned from the roads because they cant be controlled in the same way and are too slow to respond. Or taking the context of the original article where holding a lower gear stops you speeding, thats complete garbage too as you will have less response to throttle in the higher gears due to turbo lag on an impreza, so are more likely to wander above the speed limit using the engine in its more eficient rpm range.

All this "advice" is just bollocks, you drive the car based on its particular charicteristics and you drive it in an apropriate manner sutable for the conditions and trafic behavour. The dumbing down and compartmentalising of thinking that is going on in the "education" of the UK driver does my head in, it's pathetic and isnt takleing the real issues.

:confused: EH? So if I weed out any relevent parts are you basically saying that a car which in general will do anything from 20 to 90MPH in 3rd that this is not a flexible and responsive gear? What the article is basically saying is most drivers doddle about in 4th or 5th with absolutely no throttle response available to either accelerate or decelerate in response to changing road or traffic conditions, and that is how the speed creeps up, in heavy built up areas in town 2nd gear is quite often required to allow flexibility,

most cars have no throttle response in 2nd compared to a high performance car in 4th, it's all relative, the amount of diference a 90BHP car is capable of making between 2nd, 3rd and 4th is insignificant in terms of power delivery when cruising in trafic. If you need to have the engine screeming or mid range just to control your speed easier you are a crap driver and are not concentrating or spacially aware.

You simply cant make blanket statements on what is a best gear to use because that varies depending on the car, the road conditions, the inclination of the road, the trafic levels, the size of turbo, the gearing.............generalisations are nonsensicle is my point and the sooner we get away from this aparant need to have things in a box as "good advice" the better.

Fair enough, you have your opinion and I have mine, coupled with lots of training I have had and teach as part of the emergency service I must agree to disgree, but hey the world would be a boring place if everyone agreed, just trying to do my bit to help the education that everyone agrees is lacking in todays drivers, anyone local is welcome to have a drive and see the difference, :D

I have to say that I agree with john felstead. I had to demonstrate this to an IAM observer once, who kept telling me "Put it in second" when 3rd would usually be a better choice. Would have been nice to take him out in a nice V8 car just once :)

I got the impression that he'd never driven anything much in the 100+ club, and he certainly found the firm suspension & grip levels off putting, as he kept applying the passenger side brake pedal before most corners. When the visibility was good I hasten to add!! I hope that we both benefitted from the experiences.

I've been involved with an IAM & RoSPA local group for about a year now. (One day, I'll have a day off work to take my test ;)) I'm beginning to think that the IAM has lost it's way - the accountants and politicians seem to be in charge now. Blanket advice like that just doesn't work.

I also have to say that good driver training is the best way to make the most of your cars. You will get better overall economy and you should be a lot safer - and believe it or not, faster too.

i would be quite happy to educate you jaf01uk, if you happen to be in the north west sometime. :D

Yeah, I know you are an accomplished racer and I would gladly take you up on that should I be down your way, but I teach on road driving to ambulance staff to make maximum progress safely dodging the fools on the road and the strange reactions that warning systems seem to have on them, and surely the system we use cant be that bad, we have the lowest accident rate of any of the emergency services despite driving most emergency miles,
Gary

And the gearing and engine performance of an Ambulance is the same as every other vehicle on the road? I think not.

You also find that diferent areas use diferent vehicles, one of my mates is a paramedic in stafordshire and he uses anything from a NA Diesel Ambulance, Turbo Diesel Ambulance or a fast response Impreza Turbo Wagon. All 3 require diferent driving styles for diferent scenarious. He also drives a Porsche 968 which he doesnt drive in the same way or same gears as his ambulances, funny that isnt it......

If you cant see the point i am making by now you never will.

My last post, you of all people I thought would have realised the inportance of a FLEXIBLE and RESPONSIVE gear, no matter what is being driven, style has nothing to do with it, yhe system is the same. And in respect of the vehicles performance, it is even more criticle to be in the correct gear if the vehicle is low performance, although you will probably find that 3rd is the most flexible at speeds of 25 to 30 in any vehicle, I only wish you could sit in on an emergency run through traffic and it would become obvious the amount of forward planning and importance of having the correct gear engaged to make progress quickly in fast changing circumstances,

Ps. I agree that the IAM seem to have lost the plot as they teach defensive driving with fuel economy rather than progressive driving, they dont even teach drivers how to read limit points for corners and bends?

The last line of the BBC article... for those that didn't read it! ;)

BTW John F - My car is in the mid 2000s in 3rd at 30 mph, MY01 WRX UK! ;)

And the slowest attendance times no doubt ;):p

Imbsman is dead right. It is better overall to be in the lower gear for his reasons and also what I said before. The engine is happier at the slightly higher revs and will also have better oil flow through the oilways. The response if you need it will be better and the difference in noise is hardly worth thinking about.

The difference in fuel consumption is also negligible, in fact some engines will run more efficiently at higher revs and the specific fuel consumption will be better.

Les

jaf01uk, you are completely missing the point i am making, which is that it is imposible to make a blanket statement such as which gear to use at a set speed, as all vehicles are diferent and respond diferently depending on circumstances. I know full well how to get the most out of a vehicle and the IAM advice has zero to do with achieveing that. I'll leave it there as repeating the same basic message is boring.

Quite right!

Les

The engine isnt going to sieze if you drive in 4th gear or 2nd gear at 30MPH. Oil condition is going to deteriorate quicker if you drive everywhere in a low gear. Slightly higher revs than what? My TypeRA is doing the same rpm in 4th as a UK turbo is doing in 3rd at 30MPH, so which gear is better?

Jaf01UK-
I'd also be interested in how many so called "advanced" drivers actually have natural driving talent, history of motorsport driving/riding and a history of high performance vehicles,not just a piece of paper saying they've passed a test because they are able to sit an exam.

Training somebody to drive to a genuine advanced level isn't going to happen if they previously thought a vehicle is a means of getting from A to B or they actually don't enjoy driving.

I've witnessed some appalling driving by so called advanced drivers over the years, likewise I've seen some impressive driving.

jaf01uk, you seem to be taking this conversation very personally. Its just a discussion with different view points (as always). I'm particularly worried by your continueous siting of your advanced this and police/ambulance that.....this IMHO is always a worrying trait. I have a planning degree but that doesn't make me a good planner - it proves that I can pass a university course at a required standard and will no doubt have picked up planning knowledge on my journey but that is all. I don't doubt you are a very able/safe driver, etc but please don't think that because of the courses you have done in the same way that the letters after my name mean sweet FA. As john F seems to be getting at a really good driver can jump into any car and quickly figure out its characteristics, strong points, weak points, etc. The first thing I always do in a new motor is play around with the revs, gears, steering and brakes to figure out what is best for THAT car on THAT journey :)

The so called 'advice' just seems very narrow minded to me and now we are going to have gullible grannies all over driving around with their little micra engines screaming blue murder :D

Spoon,

I'll answer that. To pass the Police Advanced Course you need to have a natural ability, otherwise you will find it too much work. Students would have previously taken a standard course which teaches them how to drive to the system of car control.At the end of that course they will be assessed as to whether they have the natural ability to complete an advanced course.You don't need previous racing experience, as we don't teach drivers to drive as fast as they can. What we do teach, is the ability to make swift progress safely. Being a racing driver takes great skill. However, they don't have to worry about any other traffic, pedestrians etc. Any silly fool can drive fast on a public road, but a good driver can drive fast safely.

I will agree however that there are some Advanced drivers out there who would struggle to pass a course now.

Well said kenny. http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/images/icons/icon14.gif


Andy

As an aside to this topic, but still somewhat relevant to the way the conversation is going, I contacted the police here in Northern Ireland to see if they had any schemes to offer driver training. I need all the help I can get.

They refered me to the IAM and said that they didn't do anything of that nature.

I did investigate the IAM but believe, along with others, that they have lost the plot. The "advanced" drivers I had contact with while I was considering my options struck me as being somewhat more dangerous on the road than most people I knew with no advanced training. "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing." This is supported by their latest stunt of telling us that if we are in third we are safe.

So, in the situation where the police are unable to help and the IAM are, in my personal view, a bunch of dangerous nutters what options are left to someone who would like to improve their driving skills? It is all very well to spout that we need better driving education, something I support, but where do we get it?

Maybe i can help there.

My friend Mike Peck is the senior Police trafic officer/trainer for a major Police force, he was the first person in the UK to use an Impreza on active service. Mike is running two types of driver training courses this year.

On Track

STi Circuit courses are £219 with only 90 places left for 2004. You get to drive an STi 2004 version on the circuit having being evaluated in a new style Mini Cooper. Cheaper than a track day ! Most are at Elvington

On Road

STi Advanced high performance road days are full day, three to a car sessions covering 50 to 300 miles approx again in a new STi with tarmac suspension etc etc. That course is £239 inclusive of all insurances and lunch and has about 130 places remaining. Strictly over 25s on this and you need to produce your driving licence and ID ! Courses run from the Beverley/York area using roads in N Yorkshire.

Contact 01482 868877 or e-mail on sales@performancedrivers.co.uk

Mike has sat with me at the nurburgring and he is extremely good at evaluating and coaching a driver.

Thanks for the info John. Perhaps it highlights my point that for a driver such as myself, based in Northern Ireland, who may not be interested in track or "high performance" training but is interested in further basic education there really is very little on offer.

This would also apply to the majority of other drivers in diverse parts of the country who would like, or need, further education but have no interest in "performance."

In saying that I'd be tempted to the road course you detail and am sure that I would gain a lot from it, specially as I drive an STi8, but the cost for me after hotels, ferries etc. is going to be £1000+ I am sure you appreciate how, generally speaking, this is not practical or accessable for most people who might consider some extra training.

It's got to be said that I believe that local police forces should have schemes, similar to the course you describe, available in all areas for a reasonable fee, say in the region of the cost you list. I believe that there are schemes like this in some areas for bikes.

im still in 1st when i hit 30


i must slow down a bit