Double declutching and heel and toe are completely different. Heel and toe is just blipping the throttle whilst the clutch is depressed, and it is only depressed once.

Double declutching does not improve the balance of the car under braking. Heel and toe does.

Thats why I said H&T, as in heel and toe !

TBH with the scoob I tend to "Big toe, Little toe" rather than heel and toe.

I find the gear changes are alot smoother...it was somthing I learnt whilst driving an old porsche 911..the only way for a good slick change was to heel and toe. And double clutching at slow speeds in 2nd and 1st :)

Ickle blip of the throttle to downchange and yes i do gear brake but see what happens when my brembos are on:D

cal

Yes - double de-clutch - gives a smoother downchange. And heel & toe.

And engine brake (when I feel like it....) :) :) :)

yes and yes, not only is it smoother, it sounds nicer :) and if you lift the HKS super sequential whistle :rolleyes: you get a nice pop and a few flames if you're lucky :D

I passed my PSV in a bus with a "crash box" which means you have to drive it by double de-clutching, it makes you a smoother gearchanger, but not worth messing about with on a car with a synchromesh gearbox,nothing to be achieved by double de-clutching.. its 2003 no ya know.

Skuse me, but, in layman's terms, how does synchromesh work ? :)

Wilster.

:rolleyes:

fecking slam the car through every gear - force the syncros until they wear out, bend the main shaft afterwards.. then buy an uprated gearbox... what are you fags driving? Austin A10's? :D:D:D:D

get real folks... ;)

enjoy the impreza for what it is... a rally slag..

Synchromesh ;- press ya clutch pedal down move your gearstick into gear, clutch pedal back up, and boot it with no strange noises or grating from gearbox..

Knackered Syncromesh: You do above but you can't get into gear, or hear a nice crunch/grinding noise. Or it decides to pop out when ever it feels ;)

learning to heel and toe properly myself

mostly on the way home from late shift and such when the roads are dead, still get the odd really fackin jerky, downchnage that would have me crashed out bigstyle, if i was on a track so im reluctant to push hard until i more confident ;)

Get it it right on matching the engine speed you don't need the clutch anyway i think they tried that on minis in the 60's on rallys along with left foot braking . I passed my I.A.M test you dont have to do it just a blip to make gear changers smoother. Im a artic drive its better with a d. de clutch when cold or need a quick gear change to keep engine on boost at nearly 3 bar!!!! most 12 lt engines power band is between 1K and 1.6 k and red lines at 2.4k so thats why they so many feeching gears !!!!!

No idea why you guys are double declutching with a syncro box, its not needed.

I Heal and Toe on track, dont bother on the road normally.

Easiest way to heal and toe in an impreza is to angle your right leg so your foot sits accross both the brake and throttle, with the brake under the ball of your foot and the throttle under the heal of your foot, then as you shift down under braking, push the heal of your foot down so it blips the throttle. Dont just tickle the throttle, give it a good one movement stab to get the revs up quickly then release the throttle, then let the clutch out. All you are trying to achieve is matching the revs to what they will be when you release the clutch, so you dont get any jerks from transmition wind up. Dont worry if at first you find you are reving it too much or too little, it will become natural with practice.

Another method to Heal and Toe is to roll the side of your foot, so you have half your foot on the brake, half on the throttle. I find this technique hard to use because its harder to keep the same brake peddle presure whilst rolling your foot in an Impreza. In a race car with a custom pedal box its much easier to use this method.

oh, and i never use the engine for braking, brakes are for braking, engines are for going faster. :D (dont confuse that statement with using the throttle to modulate speed ;))

John

When you say you never use the engine for braking, do you mean in the sense of an alternative to brakes? I keep the car in gear when using the brakes and only depress the cluch for the downshift so there must be an element of engine braking being used somewhere?? Don't mean to be pedantic, just don't want to be confused ;)

Justin

JohnF,

Great explanation.. the bit i cant do is after i've let out the clutch - getting off the brake pedal back on to the throttle without jerking the throttle so the car kangeroos??? What do you do AFTER you've blipped the throttle - that to me is the techy bit???

Ta

Jza

i never use engine braking, except to hold the car steady in slippery conditions, or to control the speed, not slow down...

Remember, 'brakes to slow, gears to go'

edited to add - it's also a LOT easier and cheaper to replace worn pads than gearboxes etc.

[Edited by MrDBM - 11/19/2003 9:49:48 AM]

yes Jay m A, thats what i mean. Leave the car in gear unless you are changing gear, never coast in neutral. Engine braking has very little effect, especially on turbo engines with low compresion.

Coming off the brake after Heal and Toe downshifts should be as smooth as just coming off the brakes and aplying throttle without heal and toe. I alter the angle my leg takes depending on if i am about to downshift or just come off the brakes too, so after finishing the downshift i will straighten my legs angle, efectively rotating it so the foot is now straight on the brake rather than angled across brake/throttle, whilst gradually releasing brake presure. Every input has to be smooth, you dont jump on the brakes, you squeeze them and build the presure, when coming off you release them gradually too, you dont just take your foot straight off. Same with aplying the throttle, dont just nail it, squeeze it on gently.

Getting the most out of a car is all about smooth transitions of state. It may sound slow doing it this way, but i am talking split second diferences that stop the car jerking and allow much higher levels of control.

Interesting post - and suddenly realise I'm getting old.
DDC most of the time - will now try and get out of this satisfying (aurally) habit as do understand that it's technically pointless.

As for H&T - Yes. Agree with JF about angling right foot in Scoob rather than 'racers' method of ball of foot across brake and throttle. Fine in 911 - but not in Scoob IMHO

The "who cares/thrash it/that's what it's bulit for" merchants obviously haven't ever followed or been driven by a professional on track: smoothness is quicker as balance (in a road car)is vital.
Of course - doesn't apply with race spec.

clutchless gear changes - oh yes! but only in hire cars - doesnt everyone? :D

Thats why Enzo's cars were trashed by the British cars with Dunlop disk brakes until he relented and installed disk brakes on his cars. Enzo, at times, really was a stuborn old fool. :D

i need a stupidly small steering wheel then as i could never get my knee & steering wheel in the same space when trying to change angle of foot on brake so i kud put heel on accelerator DAMN MY LANKY LEGS :D :eek: lol
Si

1. Yes
2. Never that's what the brakes are for!

When "moving it" - I "Heel and Toe". That is to say brake whilst blipping the throttle and downchanging.
Makes the whole process much smoother and faster as well as not upsetting the balance of the car on the way into a corner!

A true Heel & Toe method can only be used in cars with floor hinged pedals, i.e, old cars & Porsches (same thing?) on cars with top hinged pedals you can't physically get your heel onto the throttle without dislocating your ankle:)

Interesting post, and I have my asbestos Calvins well pulled up so here goes, There is absolutely no need to double de clutch on modern cars all your doin is doubling the clutch wear? And like already said further up Brakes are for slowing and Gears are for going, I'd rather replace brake pads than clutch plates or gearboxes!
I do use heel toeing occasionally if I'm having a blast, but again it is not necessary on the road,
Has no one on here heard of "sustained rev gearchanging?" Ie. slowing the car towards the corner, waiting for the limit point to start it's move then match the gear to the speed your now travelling at by giving the gas a squeeze to set the revs to what they are going to be once you take the clutch up,
I think the above method is as smooth as any other and more mechanically sympathetic, maybe now explians why I've seen so many posts about dodgy gearbox's and clutch probs?
Gary :D :D

Well executed double de-clutching is as quick as doing a gearchange with a single de-clutch. It will not cause extra clutch wear and it will reduce wear on the synchros if it is done correctly. The Scoob is also as easy to do clutchless changes on as the old Ford box as fitted in the Lotus Cortinas and 1600E's. However it is embarassing and not good for the box if you get it wrong! Heel and toe changing is also the best way to drive and as jonfelstead says, the real art is making smooth transitions which enable you to keep better control even when you are on the limit.

Les

Do hire cars even have clutches? :D I thought they were all clutchless with off road tyres :D :D

Do you not remember your driving instructor telling you to use engine braking? much less wear on everything IMHO.

And on very quick downchanges you're putting a lot of strain on the synchro as it's not for racing, so smooth ddc is much better for it.

Clutch wear is also minimal as there is no slipping involved when it's done right as opposed to just hammering it down a gear then slipping off the clutch without blipping the throttle.

If you ddc and blip ever time you drive it will be good practise and make it much smoother when hammering it.

LFB hahahahahaha That'll be cause of your fat feet then ;) Can't help it and all that :D:D:D:D:D:D

Mikey :cool:



[Edited by Gridlock Mikey - 11/19/2003 2:23:26 PM]