Skittles, sorry mate, thought I was included in that :)

We've supplied the workshop with three E46 M3 engines in the last month...so Steve kind of has a point. BUT, this could be down to the owner's own fault for not following running in procedures etc.

Wouldn't stop me owning one if I had the chance.

Rich :D

Skittles wrote:

>> Finance costs = the cost of servicing your borrowing - i.e. THE INTEREST on the principal you borrow. <<

Oh you're talking borrowing and debt servicing. I was talking over-pricing which for me is the bottom line before any other consideration. Not involved with that debt malarkey, I prefer to own my cars outright so have limited knowledge as I "service my own finance" i.e. pay cash ...;) Despite repeated arm twisting to take advantage of various wunnerful "finance" services at various dealerships .... I wonder why they do that;) ... no I don't, obvious init!... :)

Still don't make those Bavarian/Seth Afrikan wheels any cheaper in the UK though ... and THAT has been the main thrust of my responses here .... they're over-priced, they really are. That's why some try to obtain their cars from overseas .... to take advantage of lower prices. Despite the best (worst) efforts of UK based, alien controlled manufacturers/dealerships and their various ploys to discourage "grey", personal or brokered imports, many cars are successfully sourced from abroad to take advantage of much lower prices there. Build 'em where cheapest (BMW, like many others do do that)then sell 'em where dearest .... guess where?

Anyway, that's how I see the various aspects of financing and the purchase of a car.

Think that covers it so that's shallot ... No more verbal diagrams I promise ... I'm orf now to the Marque of Friendship sites .... but like another very famous geezer once said ... "I'll be back" ...:D

Ok, be good....

What I was saying MGJohn is, that many people believe if they own a BMW they are great the are superior, they have "made it". I do not agree with this, and agree with you....BIG DEAL you own a beamer! If I really wanted so could I!
This is where the image of w@nker drivers/owners comes from, they think they are superior to everyone else, which is how BMW manage to get away with the service they give - which is appauling as many of us know.
Ok fine not all K series engines are that bad - but many owners have had major reliablity problems - I know someone who owns a used car garage and he wil not buy rovers or landrovers just because of how many he has had problems with.
Its just my opinion John and you are free to have your opinion too!

Interesting thread this :)

I liked Steve Lawson's comments :) I've known Steve for a few years and I trust his judgement when it comes to cars. He has worked on mine enough times.

I guess whatever car you have, they are all built down to a cost. BMW and Mercs included. I would certainly say in my own personal experience that BMWs are damn sight better screwed together than your average Rover (or many other brands come to think of it). I'm not a huge BM fan, but they do make some stonking cars - the 330D is a stunning car and I guess if someone handed me the keys to a new M3 I wouldn't be too disappointed :)

My own personal experience of Rovers has not been so good. At a previous company, it was our distinct displeasure to run 2 Rover 400 diesels (the non-turbo version - nice!) as pool cars. I did many a trip in them. Both broke down, leaving me stranded once on the M40 and once on the M25 - neither was a pleasant experience and the fault was identical on both cars which is even more worrying.

The only serious accident I've ever been involved in was driving a Rover 800 - without doubt the biggest heap of crap it has ever been my displeasure to drive (the brakes verged on dangerous - hence in part, the accident). A truely appalling car.

I think MG deserves a lot of credit for turning the 200 / 400 series into a half decent car. I would never have thought it possible. The 200 / 400 were always grossly over-priced and could never by any stretch of the imagination be described as class leading. Ergonomics poor (terrible seats with no support), build quality rough, engines very average, handling - what handling? The 75 does seem to be quite a decent car, but then it does borrow a fair amount from a 5 series BMW - and I'm not keen on the styling.

BMW have done a fantastic job in cultivating their image and market position. BMW make the biggest selling saloon and coupe in the mid-market 'prestige' sector - something like 500,000 units a year in the UK alone and they still manage to conjure up this image of exclusivity in their owners - a monumental marketing achievement! :)

Like many other manufacturers - Subaru included, they use the 'halo' effect of their performance models to shift the lower spec units in enough bulk to make a decent profit. Peugeot did it with the 205GTI which ended up accounting for 25% of all 205 sales!

So I can see how BMW have acheived their current position, it remains to be seen whether they will maintain it.

Chris

Just to throw a little fuel on the fire.

Last night I was out with my mate who owns a garage business and preps rally cars (mentioned many pages ago in this thread). I was telling him all about this thread and we got to talking about German versus Japanese build quality.

His comments were very interesting and he made a very valid point.

People confuse the strength and weight of materials with build quality. For instance a VW Golf door weighs a damn site more than a Toyota Corolla door, but this doe not it is a better built car - quite the opposite according to my mate's experiences.

On the subject of BMW's he did say that the materials used are on the whole of a pretty good quality, but in his experience they are often not screwed together as well as a Honda or Toyota. He also said that disappointingly many of the 'quality' German manufacturers are using much cheaper lower grade components under the skin of their vehicles - he mentioned Mercedes steering column assemblies as one example of this.

In his opinion the best of the German manufacturers in terms of build quality and reliability are Audi and as he services/repairs many different types of vehicle every day I trust his judgement more than most.

Incidentally he did say Rover's have improved tremendously in the last few years, before that they were pretty bad (excluding the non-Honda models).

Regards,

tiggers.

oohhh well thats it settled then ;)

camk,

I'm so pleased that you're still here (NOT) - this thread was in danger of becoming 'blinker free'. Have you anything sensible to contribute or just more of the same. No don't say anything - I already know the answer!!!!

No regards,

tiggers.

Tiggers

I think you've got a very valid point with about the perceived quality of different cars. After all, if BMW, Mercedes, Ford, Honda etc are all selling a car for around £20K (which they do), then you can expect that roughly, they all cost the same to build (give or take, but there can't be a huge difference). Therefore, they must be using components of similar quality.

In many ways, it is easier to make more expensive cars, where the price difference between models and manufacturers is less important - and brand image becomes even more important!

In terms of interiors, Audi's have always been well regarded (so much so, that I believe BMW poached their designer) and there is a perception of better quality with these cars. The interiors of Japanese cars has never been their strong point (in terms of design anyway, if not the actual quality of how it is screwed together).

A lot I guess, is perception and if the public 'perceive' that a heavier door = better quality, then I guess that it what manufacturers will do.

Chris



[Edited by Chris L - 5/18/2003 6:38:58 PM]

Tiggers,
I see you are as pleasant as ever :rolleyes:. The bottom line is that BMW are very succesful at what they do, and are perceived as being leaders in most classes of the car market. They also build engines for some of the most exclusive cars in the world. None of this is likely to change so therefore all these massive faults seen in your friend's garage are essentially being ignored by the car buying public. Are you sure its me thats blinkered, you sound like the Emperor with the new clothes. Everyone can see it except you ;)

camk,

YAWN!!! You're like a broken record, BUT YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!!

Your post is exactly what this thread is about - up to a point BMW is a triumph of marketing over substance!!!

PLEASE PLEASE try and understand this. I'm not saying that BMW aren't successful or anything else like that - just that they're not all they are cracked up to be.

And yes I do think that the opinion of a successful repair and maintenance garage business owner is quite an important one as opposed to yours which I don't!!

I shall start being nice when you at least flick the blinkers from side to side a little, may be turn your head ... as to the "everyone can see it except me" comment - just go back and read some of the other posts on this thread - from what I can gather that should take you quite some time, but it'll be worth the effort I can assure you!

tiggers.

Just back to clear up one or two points.

The 'unrealistic' finance costs refer to the extortionate rate of interest BMW finance charge and also the fact that it is front loaded. The reason I say it is unrealistic is that compared to what Porsche will offer you (which is a superb deal) its cr*p.

12% APR in this day and age is too much IMHO.

However, if I could finance it at a more sensible rate I'd have one in a shot - no question.

In the end I can't complain because I'm trying to get into a car I can't afford. The same can be said of the 911 but Porsche are willing to be more realistic on the residual value than BMW and their interest rates are lower.

Non of my comments are in any way related to the actual COST of the M3 as I think it represents good value - its just that the deal for me showed them making so much money out of the finance that I went away feeling a bit narked.

Skittles - the SMG box is a revelation to me and took very little to get used to, it also made the manual seem outdated and unecessary (spelling).

'I can't afford an M3 so I've got to buy a 911'- just read that line again and think about how stupid it is, but for me its true :D:D

and your point is caller ? There is no point to your warbling on and on. Its simply supply and demand. If you take the point you make then we'd all drive Skoda's which appear very good value for money, but we do not. So therefore BMW have a large slice of the market and many many satisfied customers who return time and again. The same analogy could be used for any 'Premium' consumer item, do you drink Safeway Cola ? The fact is that the cars are good and people continue to buy them, this is as good as it gets for car manufacturers. You are entitled to an opinion but it doesn't mean that folks who don't agree with you are stupid or blinkered.

How can it be marketing over substance when McClaren and Rolls Royce use their engines, possibly their engineers are not as clued up as your mate ;)



[Edited by camk - 5/18/2003 6:35:20 PM]

Tigger I went through it again, just to make sure I'm not a million miles off the mark. However it boils down to the guy you work with making a statement that he thought BMW's were the fastest thing out there, whcih I aslo disagree with. However you then went on to slag off the owners of BMW's then the Quality of BMW's and the 'Image' of BMW's. None of which were part of the original thread, you made a point on the A versus B performance/cost comparison. Some people then said that BMW's will offer 'other' benefits and that was the reason there was a price differential. All of which you rubbished :rolleyes:

Quote from Tigger

"That is one of the main reasons I would never buy one - I really do not want to be associated with the breed due to the way a lot of the drivers of the lesser models behave, I think they have a chip on their shoulder as soon as they realise their 'ultimate driving machine' is actually very ordinary and their car allowance could have been better spent elsewhere."

Who REALLY has a chip on their shoulder.

Yeah whatever!

Let's face facts here - I disagree with you and you disagree with me. I have my opinions and have said all through that they are just that - my opinions. You don't share them and that's fine, what gets me about you is the fact that you have never read any of the posts in here properly.

I think the points made on here do relate to the original thread and I have criticised (rather than your rather coarse term 'slagged off') the attitude of SOME BMW drivers, SOME of the quality myth and SOME of the image - it's all part and parcel of the same argument. As for your point about other manufacturters using the same engines so my friend's experience is worthless - well it's so pathetic it's not worth a retort.

Still on the plus side I see you've actually attributed me with a quote I actually made at last. Good going - there is some grey matter in there after all.

I think I shall refrain from replying to any more of your contributions and would be grateful if you'd show me the same courtesy. After all if it's a battle of wits you're after you appear to be unarmed ;-)

tiggers

[Edited by tiggers - 5/19/2003 3:32:24 AM]

[Edited by bros2 - 7/2/2003 4:45:30 PM]

[Edited by bros2 - 7/2/2003 4:45:58 PM]

I agree with many of the comments posted here, but my point comes from my business partner's quote:

"His reply was that it was the ultimate saloon car in terms of outright speed and performance."

If he'd said it was beautifully built, luxurious etc. etc. I'd have agreed, but my point is that to most laymen the M series BM's are thought of as the fastest thing on four wheels - my point is they're not and if that is your sole buying criteria then think again.

Simple as that really.

BTW if the lap times around the Autodrome West circuit really are 4 seconds different between the EVO and the M3 (i.e. if all other things are equal) then I'm surprised as I really would have expected the margin to be smaller. 4 seconds is the same as the difference between the M3 and a 106GTI according to the table of figures which is a bit suspect if you ask me? I'm thinking different conditions, drivers etc.

Anyway I'm rambling

tiggers.

[Edited by tiggers - 5/8/2003 10:27:00 AM]

Why would someone want let's face it a "pig" ugly jap evo or imprezza, If they can afford a far superior m3, You see I'm going to buy an imprezza "maybe", But if i had the means, I'd choose an m3 coupe anyday, Who care's if an m3 is 4 second's slower round a track and all this load of ****, When 99 percent of the time, You will be driving down the high street, Not on a race track.

and it's not marketing etc, it's a proven fact, That bmw's are of far better build and quality, Than the car's you are trying to compare with it.



[Edited by IwantAscoob - 5/8/2003 3:59:15 PM]

================================================== ====================
"They are jap mobiles, That's why we call them jap lol.

Which car's are you defending here ?, the JAP and RICE mobile's or the m3 ?."
================================================== ====================

If you can manage to drive a car (or visit a site based upon a car) that is built & sold by Japanese human beings, then you can manage to avoid refering the cars from that origin as "jap" or "rice".

I'm a fan of German cars. I'm a fan of British, Japanese and American, but regardless of where and what cars I like, it doesnt mean you are qualified to make offensive remarks simply because you have enough IQ to make a remark over the internet.



[Edited by Cosworth427 - 5/9/2003 12:59:58 AM]

There are only 2 Soarers in Germany... so don't hold your breath waiting to not let one out... on second thoughts...

Side street access is very much an opportunity to show contempt for your fellow road users and is endlessly fascinating to watch...

There are certain cars that never get shown respect... BMW head that list... Mercs then Porsches... top of the recent list is the X5... Camk, you could grow a beard (if you weren't a woman) in the time you would sit at a Junction in that 'car'.

Beemerboy... :D

[Edited by Mycroft - 5/9/2003 10:32:13 AM]

Mycroft,

Thank you so much for mentioning the X5 - what a pointless vehicle. Let's take an off-roader and try and make it handle like a saloon car and then let's charge a price so high that for the same money you could buy a good saloon car and a competent off-roader.

But the BMW fans buy it by the bucket load - I just don't get it. What scares me the most is the combination of a typical BMW driver and a typical 4x4 driver - run to the hills and hide I tell you - a combination of arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous thing!!

Regards,

tiggers.

P.S. Before you all get on my back at least some of this post is meant in jest - then again some of it isn't!!



[Edited by tiggers - 5/9/2003 11:25:41 AM]

"I'd be happy to bet anything you want that there are more 5 series's on the road than X5's"

Seeing as the 5 series has been out for many many years and the X5 is only about 2-3 years old you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to work that out.

My point really is that these people buy these cars as a fashion statement and never have any intention of going off road. I just think they'd be better off driving a saloon which is as good probably better for less money. Still the BMW driving fraternity aren't known for their common sense when it comes to buying cars as otherwise BMW would never sell a single 316.

As for the exclusivity thing - they just want to be individual like everybody else ;-)

Regards,

tiggers.

[Edited by tiggers - 5/9/2003 1:47:46 PM]

================================================== =================
"What is offensive about me calling a japanese car, a jap car ?

The same as i would call a tvr a brit car etc etc, I don't actually see your stupid point, As for IQ i think ya better take a close look at your's pal."
================================================== =================

Go tell that to someone Japanese (preferable face to face) and you'll see that it's far from nice. Dont forget that you was the P.O.S that also refered Japanese cars as "rice" mobiles.

Just because you chose to concentrate on asking me what the hell is so offensive about the word "jap" doesnt mean it detaches you from all responsibility of any other ignorant comments you made.

And please, dont try to compare racist terms with "brit". "Brit" is self proclaimed and self maintained by the British.

So the point being? This is a message board for Subaru/other marque car enthusiasts, not a place to spread your narrowminded ignorance. If you have a problem with controlling your attitude, then get the hell out of here, its not as if you have any knowledge that people dont have.




[Edited by Cosworth427 - 5/9/2003 2:12:34 PM]

What if it was some dodgy parking by another car that has now gone, and it was the last space left?



[Edited by davyboy - 5/9/2003 2:40:38 PM]

Bobby,

Got you there - I CAN honestly say I have never bought a pair of running shoes to wear as a casual fashion item, but I take your point.

How do I explain this best. An X5 is a large and fairly unwieldy vehicle which in the UK must be a handful on some roads to say nothing of difficult to park. It no doubt gazzles the gas at an alarming rate and costs a fortune to insure. I think if people just sat back and thougt logically a lot of them would find a 5 series far more sensible and they could still have their precious badge.

To go back to the running shoes analogy. If I go to the gym a couple of times a week for an hour a go I may as well buy some good mid range running shoes whereas if I never intend to go runing at all I would be better off with some proper leather shoes rather than running shoes. Of course I may still buy running shoes as a fashion statement, but personally I think that makes me look like a tw@t much the same as most X5 drivers ;-)

tiggers.

[Edited by tiggers - 5/9/2003 2:42:47 PM]

Oh dear. this thread is descending into anarchy!

[Edited by Bobby Peru - 5/9/2003 8:20:48 PM]

OK I think this thread may have a got away a little from my original point, but it’s been interesting nonetheless.

Overall what amazes me about it is the sheer number of posts. Admittedly it has become a bit of a "for BMW" vs "against BMW" slanging match in places, but considering this subject does get touched on ;-) elsewhere in the forum I am surprised at how emotive a subject it is.

Personally I will probably never own a BMW as apart from the fact that I don't want to be associated with the image that goes along with them in the UK I also feel they are overpriced when the criteria for what I personally want from a car are taken into account. Please note that this is my personal set of criteria not everyone’s.

On the subject of the "legendary bullet proof BMW build quality" I have a good friend who runs his own garage business and gets to service and maintain all manner of vehicles. He tends to deal mainly with vehicles over five years old when the dealers are no longer tending to them.

I asked him which vehicles were in his opinion the best built - his reply was Toyota's and Honda's from a mechanical point of view. On quizzing him about BMW's he said they are better than some, but worse than others and are certainly nothing special in the reliability/mechanical build quality department even when they've been fully serviced and dealer maintained. I asked which in his opinion was more reliable the Impreza or the 3 series - I won't tell you his answer as it is a little biased - he owns an Impreza!!

My point is that like others on here I feel BMW's are not that special - it is only an opinion, but I do stand by my thoughts regarding the way a lot of the drivers of BMW's behave on the road - yes people can drive like idiots in any car, but the BMW (3 series particularly) marque does seem to have more than it's fair share of dickheads behind the wheel.

It was funny as just before I left the office on Friday I was reading this thread with people defending the way BMW drivers behave on the road. If anyone was on the M66 heading north around 19:00 on Friday they may have seen the guy who was using the inside lane and in one instance the hard shoulder to get past people on what was a fairly busy stretch of motorway. His speeds were well in excess of 100mph (in my opinion dangerous for the road/traffic conditions at the time) and guess what ... yep the car was a BMW M3 - made me chuckle a little.

Regards,

tiggers.


[Edited by tiggers - 5/11/2003 10:33:08 AM]

I have an M3 and I love it! Would NEVER swap it for a scoob plus the price difference (not saying Scoob is a bad car).

What is most amusing is that most of the people saying thay cant see why people buy M3s have never driven, or been in one!

One other point - I don't have any problems being let out of junctions. I have never had any abuse for owning a BMW. I have seen road rage incidents aimed at me - but aI also saw just as many as when I drove a Rover, or my Vauxhall.

I would like to finish by saying to the Rover guy - I had a Rover... What a pile of carp! Never again - to add insult to injury, apart from the troubles it gave (which were a lot), it was the fastest depreciating car I have ever owned! Pleeeease think about what you write!


Triggers; your comment to the M5 guy about parking & taking two spaces - I read a thread about the same thing and it seems a lot of scooby owners do it too - why? Because they want to protect their pride and joy against futile dents, not becuase they drive a particular brand.




[Edited by Skittles - 5/12/2003 1:44:54 AM]

[double post - see below]

[Edited by Skittles - 5/12/2003 1:57:43 AM]