Have we Cosworth drivers remained in the Horse Power era?
23 October 2001, 09:29 PM
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Have we Cosworth drivers remained in the Horse Power era?
I admit, it is fun chasing other fast cars with 300+ hp to play with. But a car is only as good as the sum of its elements. And in that respect I as the owner of an '88 Sierra Cosworth am of the opinion that I indeed drive a car developed in another era.
It may be so that a tuned Cosworth can be one very powerfull machine, but the manner it delivers this power is not of this day and age. The Garrett T3 and T35 turbos need lots of time to spin up, the length of the gears is ridiculous. 105 km/h in 2, 160 in 3, and 210 in 4 force the engine to drop down in revs way too much.
A mate of mine owned 2 Scoobys before he bought his EVO 6. Next month he gets his 7. When comparing the Cosworth to these machines on circuits (Assen, Zandvoort, Ring) I constantly get frustrated by the enormously quick bite of the Japanese engines. No way I can compensate this with engine power or late braking (I do try, just warped another set of discs after only 500 km) Especially the Mitsubishi. Ouch, does this thing has any turbo lag whatsoever? Hardly! And the reason is simple. A small, fast spinning turbo, ready to do it's thing at 3000 rpm already. And still Mitsubishi isn't satisfied. The turbo on the 7 will be even smaller!
The point I'm trying to make is that I hope this forum will not be about brute HP only, but also about making our Fords more drivable, more alert, more of this time and age. These fantastically engineered machines deserve it.
Hielke
I admit, it is fun chasing other fast cars with 300+ hp to play with. But a car is only as good as the sum of its elements. And in that respect I as the owner of an '88 Sierra Cosworth am of the opinion that I indeed drive a car developed in another era.
It may be so that a tuned Cosworth can be one very powerfull machine, but the manner it delivers this power is not of this day and age. The Garrett T3 and T35 turbos need lots of time to spin up, the length of the gears is ridiculous. 105 km/h in 2, 160 in 3, and 210 in 4 force the engine to drop down in revs way too much.
A mate of mine owned 2 Scoobys before he bought his EVO 6. Next month he gets his 7. When comparing the Cosworth to these machines on circuits (Assen, Zandvoort, Ring) I constantly get frustrated by the enormously quick bite of the Japanese engines. No way I can compensate this with engine power or late braking (I do try, just warped another set of discs after only 500 km) Especially the Mitsubishi. Ouch, does this thing has any turbo lag whatsoever? Hardly! And the reason is simple. A small, fast spinning turbo, ready to do it's thing at 3000 rpm already. And still Mitsubishi isn't satisfied. The turbo on the 7 will be even smaller!
The point I'm trying to make is that I hope this forum will not be about brute HP only, but also about making our Fords more drivable, more alert, more of this time and age. These fantastically engineered machines deserve it.
Hielke
24 October 2001, 12:42 PM
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Very good points....I think we have - whats wrong with it though - still lots of oversteer fun. Just think of it as piloting an 80s turboed F1 car compaired to a 2000 F1 car 
. Still a hell of a lot fun. 
Martin
. Still a hell of a lot fun. Martin
24 October 2001, 01:27 PM
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LOL Airbus or Concorde???
EVO is the airbus, quite ugly (in a beautiful way!), fast, efficient, modern, and does the job!
Cosworth is like Concorde, sleak, faster in a straight line (even concorde cant corner like an airbus
, flames out the back, antique yet still loved by many as they are built to last, and does the job also!
which do you prefer to fly sir???
EVO is the airbus, quite ugly (in a beautiful way!), fast, efficient, modern, and does the job!
Cosworth is like Concorde, sleak, faster in a straight line (even concorde cant corner like an airbus
, flames out the back, antique yet still loved by many as they are built to last, and does the job also!which do you prefer to fly sir???
25 October 2001, 10:51 AM
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Andy,
I prefer to fly Concorde when the other choise is Airbus. But if Cossie is Concorde, then the EVO's and Scoobies aren't Airbus. F14's, 15's and 18's cross my mind when adjusting the analogy.
Talking horsepower only is such a pitty for what can lie ahead for the development of Cosworths. Haven't we got enough turbo-lag already? Look at the hybrid Turbo's of the Scoobies. You can go both ways. More power in combination with more lag, or more torque in combination with faster response. And what about installing shorter final ratio's for the gearbox? The basics are so very good when upgrading Cosworths. Fine engineering, good reliability.
Brute horsepower and good drivability make a difficult mix.
Hielke
I prefer to fly Concorde when the other choise is Airbus. But if Cossie is Concorde, then the EVO's and Scoobies aren't Airbus. F14's, 15's and 18's cross my mind when adjusting the analogy.
Talking horsepower only is such a pitty for what can lie ahead for the development of Cosworths. Haven't we got enough turbo-lag already? Look at the hybrid Turbo's of the Scoobies. You can go both ways. More power in combination with more lag, or more torque in combination with faster response. And what about installing shorter final ratio's for the gearbox? The basics are so very good when upgrading Cosworths. Fine engineering, good reliability.
Brute horsepower and good drivability make a difficult mix.
Hielke
25 October 2001, 12:29 PM
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Hielke,
Good thread. We're starting to have the same problems with the Scoobs.
Whilst the Cossie engine is notoriously easy to get massive increase from (relative), the Scooby, has been a nightmare. As we learn more about the cars, and start to get offered uprated products, such as hybrid turbo's, etc', we too are starting to fall into the "power over drivability" trap.
It's always going to be a compromise, and I guess it really depends on whether you want a "road" orientated car, or a "track" orientated car, unless you just don't care, and no.s are your priority.
It's always amazed me just how early the Cossie's can come on boost, even with their relatively big turbo's, far earlier than a Scoob can manage.
Mark
[Edited by R19KET - 25/10/2001 12:35:31]
Good thread. We're starting to have the same problems with the Scoobs.
Whilst the Cossie engine is notoriously easy to get massive increase from (relative), the Scooby, has been a nightmare. As we learn more about the cars, and start to get offered uprated products, such as hybrid turbo's, etc', we too are starting to fall into the "power over drivability" trap.
It's always going to be a compromise, and I guess it really depends on whether you want a "road" orientated car, or a "track" orientated car, unless you just don't care, and no.s are your priority.
It's always amazed me just how early the Cossie's can come on boost, even with their relatively big turbo's, far earlier than a Scoob can manage.
Mark
[Edited by R19KET - 25/10/2001 12:35:31]
30 October 2001, 10:40 AM
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"But if Cossie is Concorde, then the EVO's and Scoobies aren't Airbus. F14's, 15's and 18's cross my mind when adjusting the analogy."
naa, for one the fighter planes only have two seats so not in the same league ie passenger aircraft A TVR you could say was a F15 or a Porsche an F14
My analogy was trying to say that the EVOs etc were newer family car technology just like the Airbus is, and the Cossies older family car technology like Concorde, but with the cossie you get first class seating ie Leather, with the EVO you dont ie Airbus and Concorde is quicker overall top speed just like the cossie
naa, for one the fighter planes only have two seats so not in the same league ie passenger aircraft
A TVR you could say was a F15 or a Porsche an F14My analogy was trying to say that the EVOs etc were newer family car technology just like the Airbus is, and the Cossies older family car technology like Concorde, but with the cossie you get first class seating ie Leather, with the EVO you dont ie Airbus
and Concorde is quicker overall top speed just like the cossie Trending Topics
31 October 2001, 02:10 PM
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Andy,
Has Concorde got leather seats all the way through then?
No disrespect to cossies, but to call them, Scoobs, EVOs Skylines etc beautiful and compare them to Concorde? Hmmm.....
I reckon a cossie is an F4 Phantom - loads and loads of brute power, bit cumbersome, very smokey
A Scoob is more like an F5 - smaller, lighter, more nimble, not as powerful
EVO is like an F16 - similar to a Scoob/F5 - but if the electronics go wrong you're fcuked
Skyline has got to be an A10 Warthog - ugly as sin but **** off hard
Hve I missed anything? Apart from the plot of course
Has Concorde got leather seats all the way through then?
No disrespect to cossies, but to call them, Scoobs, EVOs Skylines etc beautiful and compare them to Concorde? Hmmm.....
I reckon a cossie is an F4 Phantom - loads and loads of brute power, bit cumbersome, very smokey
A Scoob is more like an F5 - smaller, lighter, more nimble, not as powerful
EVO is like an F16 - similar to a Scoob/F5 - but if the electronics go wrong you're fcuked
Skyline has got to be an A10 Warthog - ugly as sin but **** off hard
Hve I missed anything? Apart from the plot of course
31 October 2001, 06:55 PM
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What a brilliant topic!
On this subject, I heard from a certain 500+ Cossie owner that the most driveable and useable his car ever was, was when it was at 385 bhp. No T4....nice Hybrid... far less lag. It also ran its quickest ever 1/4 mile at that spec as well.
That's what would suit me - nice useable road power.
On this subject, I heard from a certain 500+ Cossie owner that the most driveable and useable his car ever was, was when it was at 385 bhp. No T4....nice Hybrid... far less lag. It also ran its quickest ever 1/4 mile at that spec as well.
That's what would suit me - nice useable road power.
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