LG John

This one has me a little stumped and I suspect I'll get the answer soon enough when I meet up with a guy I know that has a P1 he claims is standard. By rolling I mean nailing the throttle in 2nd gear at 40mph which would have the S2000 at the point of vtec and the P1 nicely in its boost range.

According to Lets Torque which I find to be quite accurate the 60-100mph times are:

P1 = 7.72
S2000 = 8.73

These stats suggest the P1 will have useful extra grunt to pull a car lenth or so. However, if you try to get a reasonably accurate estimate of power at the wheels per ton you get:

P1 = 276bhp - 35% (4wd) = 179bhp/1295kg x 1000 = 138.5bhp per ton at the wheels

S2000 = 240bhp - 25% (rwd) = 180bhp/1260kg x 1000 = 142bhp per ton at the wheels

The S2000 has a 6 speed box which is effortless to change quickly through so is probably better geared for spinting (4th is pretty short for example!). The P1 also has a larger frontal area and sticky out bits that surely hinder its ability to push through the air. So, how come the S2000 is on paper slower but on paper....proabably should be the same or faster. Does it just come down to good old raw bhp at the fly? Thoughts appreciated. Has anyone with an S2000 played with scoobys or vice versa. As most of you know I used to have a classic that was P1 quick but I have no idea if my S2000 is as quick - its just impossible to tell as n/a provides very little feeling of acceleration. I'll post the results when I get a run against the P1 Might even film it

Edited to say: Yeah, this is going to be this weeks official S2000 thread Well, it is summer

Dracoro

SB - see my figures on the Pwr/Weight on the 'other' thread

Anyway, daft question to ask on SN, surely you know by now that NOTHING is faster than the farmers cars

LG John

Yeah I see that. For the others Dracoro suggests 25% loss for the P1 and 20% loss for the S2000 which gives:

P1 = 159bhp/ton @ wheels
S2000 = 152bhp/ton @ wheels

A difference of 7bhp per ton which surely is hardly noticeable on the road?

Dracoro

Has anyone got any rolling road figures for a std p1 which will have the bhp at the wheels? I'm guesstimating the 20/25% figures but they seem reasonable/typical for RWD/4WD.

turboman786

Ahaa....but which would you rather own........for me it'd have to be the P1 everytime..and they are about the same money....

LG John

Well I faced that choice two weeks ago and having owned a scooby (and enjoyed it) it was a still a pretty easy decision. I could list a million reasons but I don't want to start a this vs that thread. We are sticking to performance comparison alone here

If even I doubt it I take the car out at night with the hood down and its pretty easy to see what the real difference is - driving pleasure

Dracoro

The s2000 anyday.

Anyway that's not the question SB is asking

Senior_AP

P1 is quicker. Friend of mine has a scoob and was having some fun with his other mate in a S2000.

His car is a modified UK Turbo MY00 and was quicker. A P1 therefore is quicker - pains me to say that but it just is.

LG John

I can't remember with much accuracy but I'm pretty sure I was backing off a little chasing an S2000 on the way to Knockhill when I had my MY99 with decat, tek 2.5, etc. Weird.

ScoobySnack

Had the Scoobies , now an S2000 ..... and think they are totally different cars at a different market etc etc etc...............

Think the Scooby is quicker, but a lot of this is down to the torque which much more. Makes it easier to shift ..

But the noise of an S2000 with an HKS on VTEC is pure blisssssss.... I think better than that lovely scooby burble, but not as good as the CSL Scream

J

dij

Would like to know the actual outcome of this.

I had an s2000 a couple of years ago just before I got my sti 5 (same as p1 pretty much).
The sti deffinately felt faster to 100mph and much safer/in control after 100mph,but plenty of respect for the s2k when the gears are changed correctly.

recently had a little go against a mint s2k in my scoob (I now have a uk my99 wagon,h&s decat,sti titanium back box,link ecu mapped by BRD,sti 5 gearbox,approx 250bhp),Off the lights till 3rd gear and I was all over him,BUT then the bugger started pulling away after 80mph,couldnt catch him.

Had another go whilst rolling at the next lights,managed to get infront and stay ahead till 4th gear,then he crept up again,had to stop after that,was very dissapointed.
I change up at 6500rpm in the current scoob,but the sti pulled hard till 8200rpm,thats not far off from the Honda's 9k rev limiter.

I hope the P1 kicks the s2k's butt (revenge), but i would rather be in the Honda when the suns out.

LG John

When you say he was pulling away after 80mph what are we talking here? Inches, metres, car lengths or off into the sun-set?

LG John

Also, how the hell is a decat scooby with a remap only making 250bhp? Are you not dissapointed with that. I was pulling 13.3 1/4m times in my decat and remapped MY99 which is consistent with the 275bhp you'd expect from those mods?

FletchCSL

I'd probably still expect the P1 to be fractionally faster, but i'd rather be driving the S2000

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

SB, stop fishing for compliments/affirmation, you have bought a very nice car, we are all suitably impressed and jealous, who gives a toss over tenths of seconds. Its all about the moment when you are driving and nothing else matters, get caught up in performance figures and Evo magazine style BS and you ruin it for yourself looking for that final few percent. I reckon 'non car' people get the most enjoyment out of their motoring cos they dont worry about performance figures, pre det, lift off oversteer, heel and toe, camber, Boost (Psi or Bar), Tyre Compounds, strange noises, oil viscosity, RON numbers, octane boosters, Dawes, Knock Links, Overrun, Boost controllers, Remaps, coilovers, anti roll bars, Road Angels etc etc etc

Get on with driving it without trying to compare it to X Y or Z, theres plenty slower, theres a lot faster but if you enjoy it, f*ck the rest, my personal best drive ever was in a Renault 5 1.7 GTX, in fact my motoring enjoyment has gone down since discovering BBS's like Scoobynet, knowledge is way up but that kind of takes the magic out of it.

Cosworth427

The P1 wins this one, (yes the slower production car not the Prodrive test car)

According to EVO magazine.

S2000 60-100 mph = 9.1 seconds
P1 60-100 mph = 8.4 seconds

The S2000 makes between 192 - 202 hp at the rear wheels. So its 156 rwhp per 1000kg

LG John

Its got absolutely nothing to do with that For the money I spent on the S2000 I could have bought any P1 that is on the current autotrader market and was in the range of 2003 EVO FQ300, STI 8 JDM's & UK's etc. I chose the S2000 because its an amazing looking car, is a drop top but without being hairdresser like, sounds great, great reliability, yadda, yadda. I don't need confirmation of this from scoobynet Also why on earth would I be trying to make people jealous - half of scoobynet drives 911s/M3s anyway??? You'll also find that I talked just as much on hear about my 1997 3.0 V6 Peugeot worth £2000 over the last year. I'm not talking about the S for compliments, I'm talking about it cause I love cars pure and simple.

I'm just curious as to how these cars would compare. The classic shape scooby used to be seen as something of an accelerative benchmark but the game has moved on such that 215bhp is matched many hot-hatches. Therefore, if you are going to take any joy from sticking with a scooby its going to have to be P1 or new shape STI.

I also find it interesting that there is 'on paper' arguments to suggest the S should be as fast but significant proof that its nothing like that on the road.

I'm a car person though so all of that stuff is of interest to me

03-CTR

maybe not the easiest ways of doing it but if you can find out what the torque is at the wheels at any given instant (say at each 250rpm's through the range of interest) then you should get an idea of which is quicker.

forgetting about aerodynamics if you can get an accurate torque curve for each motor, the gear ratios and the losses then you can work out what the torque is at the wheels. assuming that each car has the same sized wheels/tyres then it's a simple case to work out the tractive force each car puts down as force = torque (Nm) / wheel radius (m).

the p1 will be more difficult to calculate as you'll have to work out what torque the engine produces, multiply by the relevant gear ratio, split it for front/rear and then subtract the losses.

once you've done that though its a simple case to work out the acceleration (for that instant) by dividing the tractive force (N) by the mass of the car (kg). providing you know what rpm's each car is doing at say 40mph then you'll know which has the greatest acceleration on offer (probably the p1 i suspect).

if you can work this out for a range of rpm's then you can get a simplistic idea of the acceleration on offer and theoretically which 'should' be quicker.

The_Titanium_Knob_Man

Saxo,

Drove an S2000 for a year, I'd put money on the P1 being faster by a fair few car lengths.

I really don't think the S2000 is fast in terms of scooby P1/evo fast.....unless you are particularly skilled at driving on the limit......but then who wants to do that on our diesel spilt roads. If you get the S unstuck, it will spank you hard in to the nearest bush...... and I'm not talking about attracting the opposite sex here

Still......warm summer nights at dusk, top down, shades on
VTEC through a tunnel........it doesn't get much better ....... unless you're in a 360 spider.......

LG John

This is pure straight line stuff tit_knob_man so no twisties to worry about

You've probably hit on a point though. In the P1 thanks to its fat torque curve you really don't have to worry too much about exactly when you shift, etc to maintain peak pull. In the S its of critical importance as you must shift perfectly to maintain its performance.

NotoriousREV

According to Cartest (which is a little simulation program) the P1 would be about 2 seconds quicker 40 - 100 but that's with the S2000 starting in 1st gear (at about 7500rpm) and the P1 in 2nd (rolling test).

The only definitive way is to try it

LG John

That is quite a considerable difference if you accept that the S2000 is only 13% down on the P1s power but 3% lighter and most likely more aerodynamic

Does the P1 'really' only hae 276bhp or was the gents agreement thrown out the window again?

NotoriousREV

I used 276 as the P1's power. I think it's down to gearing and torque at those speeds. The P1 is only using 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, the S2000 is using gears 1 to 5 so it's doing 2 extra gear changes which could easily make up a lot of that 2 seconds. In real life, you probably would start @ 40mph in an S2000 but I can't get car test to do that

Remember, it's a very basic simulator and the specs for both cars were lifted off the internet and so are probably complete bollards

Dracoro

It's not using 5th to get to 100.

top in each gear as follows
1st - 40
2nd - 70
3rd - 90
4th - 120
5th - 135 (IIRC)
6th - 156 (tested )

Cosworth427

Why is this still being debated, gents? 60-100 mph has already been independently tested, the P1 is faster by over half a second, and so it should be with the extra power it has.

Fat Boy

Torque is more important. Turbos generally have it, S2ks don't.

Cosworth427

Torque has little to do with it. The S2000 at full wack is run at the highest revs the gear ratios allow, much like any car when you test it's performance.

The only scenario where low-end torque makes the difference if the test was conducted with 5th/6th gear to measure how flexible the car is for overtaking without dropping a gear.

Anyway, the P1 is faster, it only weighs 20kg more but makes a solid 30+ hp, and that shows on higher-speed runs.

john banks

The shape of the power curve at the top can influence a little... with a turbo motor you can achieve and hold peak power across a fair rev range so that when you change gear you drop back to peak power or very near to it, as the turbo is limiting things. Looks an odd power plot, but the average power you get down might be a little higher, and it seems to cover ground very well. I really noticed this when I added half a litre displacement but kept the same turbo since I didn't have to run as much boost to get the airflow, so peak power arrived earlier for sensible boost levels. Then if the boost was slowly decayed you could hold peak power for ages... change at 7000, drop back to 5000, you are still very near peak power.

I would have suspected the S2000 was a bit faster than the P1, purely based on how I've seen them accelerate, I have been impressed by them. The P1 drivers were probably pansies though. And this is very subjective, ignoring all the figures etc.

Cosworth427

Yes, the shape of the power band affects acceleration, buts not as if the S2000 and P1 makes their power through a short spike. No production car is rated through blips or freak readings. They are averages with a 5% tolerance.

The power bands are both pretty progressive. The P1 makes 30+ hp more at peak, and it makes around that much more at / - 1000 RPMs either side of peak.

bluenose172

iTrader: (2)

LOL - am I the P1 owner??

Beleive me you WILL be doing well do get away from Neil until 120mph, his car needs to be seen to be beleived.

I'm maybe looking to change to an Elise or S2000 in the summer so would be good to get a run in your car!