Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

A friend of mine has a son who has only been driving a year (18 years old) and 3 months ago he had a serious accident in a 30mph limit

I only saw one photo of the car a Peugeot 306 but it didn't have one straight panel left, the driveshalfts were out and the engine fell out when the put it onto the recovery truck I'd estimate the actual speed to have been nearer 70mph. Anyway here's the story

He was going down the road from School and his friend was in another vehicle and there was 2 of them in each car and he overtook his friend. Very shortly afterwards there was a slight kink in the road and he lost control and spun along a wall and into a parked car writing off both vehicles and throwing his sub box from his boot over a 6 foot wall
His friend managed to stop and wasn't involved in the accident at all. My friend's son was injured in the crash and taken to hospital.

The Police closed the road after the accident for many hours and wouldn't let my friend near the car and stopped him taking photos.

In their statements they admitted knowing each other

In their statements they admitted waving to each other

Now it seems that they are recommending to the CPS that they prosecute him and his friend for "racing" on the highway because a witness saw him overtaking his friend at speed. In my opinion there is no way out of it because he was overtaking a moving vehicle in a built up 30 limit and caused an accident but I was shocked to learn that they are trying to prosecute the friend because he had vehicle fluid (not sure what) on his car after the accident which meant that he was close to my friends son's car

The Police have estimated from the scene and marks on the road (aparently) that his speed was roughly 55mph around the bend before crashing.

What is that likely to mean he'll get prosecuted for? I am certain that he'll get at least a years ban because although he has/had a clean license he is only allowed 6 points in the first 2 years.

Will the witnesses statement stand up in court?

From their evidence is there enough to prosectute him for speeding?

Surely he'll get prosectuted for at least dangerous driving and that alone can carry alot of points can't it?

Undue care and attention too?

Just trying to give my friend an idea what his son is in for so that he can get him used to it. My friend thinks that if/when he gets banned it'll be a good thing because it'll "bring him down a peg or two" and stop him from seriously harming or killing someone.

Thanks

**disclaimer**

In no way do I endorse speeding

cw42

iTrader: (1)

Paul, there was a post in a similar vein about just such an incident mid last year. If I remember rightly, a father had posted up here about his son who had been driving along with another car, when the other car crashed and I think killed the other driver. His son was banged up in prison for a while as it was deemed in court that they were "racing".
I am under the impression that the courts view this kind of scenario with great disdane, and will throw the book at him in this case, whether he was racing or not. The fact that he was speeding to overtake his m8 goes against him big time, and I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

This is always a worry for those of us who organise and attend driving events. I have seen a number of near misses in my 2 years of driving around with other scoobys, fortunately nothing came of them, but I'm sure its only a matter of time

chris.

Diablo

He'll most likely get a ban for racing on the public highway. Which he deserves for driving like a ****.

Lucky he didn't kill an innocent pedestrian.

And before anyone says it, no I'm not getting on any high horse. I drove like a right **** when I was 18, and would have deserved anything I got had the same thing happened to me.

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

cw42

I don't like the sound of that!!! Glad it isn't me, I'd be bricking it reading that!

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Totally agree and so does my friend that whatever he gets he will deserve and I think his son knows that too. He is really into his cars so whatever the outcome it's going to hurt him very badly which can't be a bad thing for everyone else concerned.

For the record the parked car that he hit was only parked up 5 minutes before and the owner got kids out of it It doesn't bear thinking about

Diablo

I know.

I think back to some of the things I used to do and shudder.....

Racing through built up areas at crazy speeds

Luckily, my big one happened on an empty country road at midnight.

Freak

dangerous driving?
racing a public highway?

Licence go bye bye......

happened to two ******** eons ago when i was in the sixth form..wasnt pretty

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Been there a few years ago too I'm afraid to say Luckily I never had any incidents like that. I must have led a sheltered life

hedgehog

He could be in serious trouble on this one as dangerous driving carries up to two years in jail and this looks like a very serious accident that the police have put a lot of resources into investigating. It is rare for cases of dangerous driving to be taken but as it can be shown that the chap had an accident it would be very difficult to argue that the behaviour which led to this accident was not dangerous. However, if dangerous driving has not been mentioned then perhaps they are not considering it. I have been in touch with a few people but so far no one can report on any actual cases they know of where people were done for racing on the public highway and I can find no guidance as to whether a prision term might be imposed for this offence. With this in mind I currently can't give any actual details on this other than the points assocaited with it in the sentencing guidelines are given as 3 to 11 so hopefully that will be the sum total of the damage and the chap will not get sent to jail.

It would be most unfortunate if the other chap wasn't actually involved in a race and got done for it as well just because he happened to be overtaken and to stop at the scene of the accident. This would be especially unfortunate should there be the possibility of a custodial sentence associated with the racing charge, though as I have said I can't establish this but suspect it not to be the case.

The police will be considered expert witnesses by the court and so their statements will be assumed to be true unless this can be very clearly shown not to be the case. It is likely that their findings will support the statements of the witness and as you can see they have clearly gone to very great lengths to collect evidence in support of their position. With this in mind it might be reasonable to fear the worst in terms of their ability to get a successful prosecution of their charges they outlined.

I think that both those involved need to get themselves good motoring solicitors pretty quickly, especially as the chap who didn't crash might have a "resonable doubt" defence in relation to whether he was racing or not. Clearly that reasonable doubt will depend upon what the witness saw. Getting a good solicitor with direct and regular experience of motoring law will be especially important if dangerous driving charges are brought as this is a very serious offence with a probability of a jail sentence.

The ABD have a list of motoring solicitors on their web page:

http://www.abd.org.uk/

It may also be worthwhile considering getting the chap to join an organisation such as the ABD as although they have an "image" of just opposing speed cameras they are actually an organisation dedicated to improving road safety and driving skills. Many members are also IAM members but the IAM might be a bit "stuffy" and "flat cap" for a younger driver. Membership of such an organisation might help him come to terms with his responsibility as a driver while giving him a pride in driving well.

FrenchBoy

Where was this Paul?

Leslie

I would imagine that the Police will need to find independent witnesses to prove that the lad who was not in the accident and stopped at the scene was racing. If they do find any witnesses and convict him then he will get a pretty stiff sentence.

I cant believe that they could prosecute without witnesses, Waving at him and knowing him is no proof that they were racing. That alone would be an assumption which is not acceptable as proof.

Les

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Because I'm getting all of my information through my friend and he's very unsure of what they are telling him I don't know if this has been mentioned for sure but for an accident like that and what I've heard afterwards from what the guys and witness have told the Police it sounds like the appropriate thing to charge him with.

And there was me thinking that a ban would be "worse case"

I was shocked to learn that they want to prosecute the other driver but they seem satisfied by whatever they've heard that they were "racing" in the Police's eyes. This itself is what really alerted me that they are looking into this very hard!

I was fearing the worst for him although my "worst" seems to be a bit out of focus Will one witness have any impact on the outcome? I don't know her exact statement obviously but she stated that they were travelling at speed and my friends son was overtaking the other car. I'm not sure if she mentioned the waving bit but certainly the boys did! If she didn't why would that come up

I told my friend this the other night but at the time I didn't think things could be so serious so I'll have another chat with him tonight and see what else I can get out of him and try and give some more advice.

Now that's a fantastic idea I'll get him to do that because my friend will insist that his son does that.

Thanks for taking such a great amount of time to look into this it really is appreciated. It's not like a clear cut speeding offence which is hard enough to predict the outcome

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

I'll pm you the location just incase

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

There was only 1 witness to my knowledge. That was one the things that was bothering me, will 1 witness make a difference? If it was several then I can understand.

unclebuck

Throw the book at them IMO. These are the kind of stupid and irresponsible people who give the government the excuses they need to introduce measures such as electronic vehicle tracking and ISA.

FrenchBoy

Funnily enough your opinion on what 'should' happen to them wasn't asked for. But thanks for another one of your valuable contributions.

hedgehog

I would be tempted to agree with this UB but what bothers me is the issue of intent. In truth many people, probably most people, at some point in their young driving lives did something that was dodgy in terms of safety and good driving practise. Generally this was down to high spirits, lack of consideration of the implications of their actions and lack of experience and these people will probably go on to become good, safe and sensible drivers.

If the two young lads involved here had been racing on their push bikes and had been involved in an accident the world would view it as tragic. Now, I appreciate that a push bike doesn't present the same danger to other road users as a car does but it does reflect accurately upon the state of mind of the young people involved here. It seems likely that it never crossed their minds to consider that they are now in control of something that has the potential to end the life of someone coming the other way.

With this in mind I would tend towards the view that putting them in jail, for example, would serve no useful purpose. What young people, in fact what all of us, need is more education and to become more aware of the likely outcome of our actions. In the case of these young lads I would make them take the IAM course/test and it might also be useful to send them out with a police officer to a fatal accident to hammer home the point that cars differ from a push bike just because other people can die. Such attempts at education must, in the long run, be more productive in terms of road safety than putting an 18 year old, with no criminal intent, in jail.

On the other hand would I like to meet him coming the other way on my local roads? Of course the answer is a resounding no. If he continues to drive in this manner there is no question that he should be removed from the roads. However, if it can be established that the lesson has been learned then the lads involved may perhaps become much more safety conscious than the average driver, I am sure they have not been unmoved by the event. So, a difficult one to call and I would certainly support a penalty plus education in this case but in the long term this might be a cheap lesson for the lads involved if it makes them behave in a more responsible manner on the roads. If this bash with no injuries goes on to save lives it must be a positive thing for everyone.

hedgehog

Consider the effort some organisations go to in order to ensure that there are no witnesses in a position to take the stand in court? Well, that gives some idea of the impact a witness can have. The witness will be viewed as having no "interest" in the matter by the court and so her statement will be taken as gospel. You will almost certainly find that the police evidence will tie in closely with the witness statement.

It is most unfortunate for the young lads that they said anything to the police without having taken advice first. In general in any dealings you have with the police it is important that, at least until you see how things are going, you say only what you are legally bound to say and not a single word more. To be honest I would guess that the pair of them have probably hammered the nails into their own coffins.

Vegescoob

For what it's worth, some years ago I was the only witness to an RTA. I had not even witnessed the actual impact. It was early morning and dark. I was able to testify as to the driving of the motorcyclist who was the victim.
In the magistrates court there was no police officer to give any evidence, just me and despite the defending lawyer trying to discredit my evidence the defendant was found guilty, fined and given 5 points. It then emerged he already had 6 points for driving without insurance.
I know you are discussing something much more serious and my example is from a fair time ago.

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

That gives me a good answer then Thanks

No, that's exactly what I'm looking for. All input apart from comments like the above from UB are welcome. I'm looking for facts not "throw the book at them" comments

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

That's certainly the impression I'm getting talking to my friend the other night. How much of it is true and how much is speculation no-one really knows apart from maybe the driver of the other car who witnessed everything.

I couldn't agree with that more. You can't acuse them of not telling the truth to cover their ***** though I think they know what they did was very wrong because they aren't actually stupid people and just made an error of judgement once too many.

Thanks

redwrx

From what i know, if the Police suspect the drivers of knowing each other, they will view it as racing ..

driving without undue care and attention


expect them to look for the biggest book to throw


I would suspect a ban, at minimum.....and a tidy fine.



at work we teach lads between 16 - 22, not so long ago one got caught over the limit ..... he pleaded he needed his car for work, we gave him a letter to say that if he had no transport, that he would not be able to complete his training, and we would have to consider his ability to complete his apprenticeship.... the courts were leanient, they halved his sentence - a year ban, hasd to do some kind of training, and he still got a hefty fine..

MattW

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/4314691.stm

DJ140

Sir Alex won't be pleased that 2 of his players have been jailed!

BexTait

Was just about to post about that. Seems that there is suddenly an increase in footballers in jail as Pennant's got himself a 3 month term for drink driving (over twice the limit) whilst banned (nobody injured luckily)

Leslie

Hard to say what importance will be laid on the woman witness's evidence PaulP. If the defence lawyer is clever enough he may be able to cross examine her in such a way that her evidence becomes seriously weakened. There is no law against knowing another driver on the road, waving to him, or even being overtaken by him in a safe area. None of that proves racing as such.

I know of such a case years ago when two friends were on the same bit of road between Hampton Court and Kingston but at least 1/2 a mile apart. One guy arrived at a pub carpark on the Hampton Wick side of the bridge and pulled into the carpark normally and parked. The other one arrived some minutes later and parked in a different part of the car park. Two coppers walked off the bridge and asked to look at the first man's documents which were in order. The other man was in the pub and the coppers dragged him out and gave him the third degree. He was also fully legal as well.

Later the two guys were summonsed for racing. The coppers had produced a "special" who said he was in a garage at Hampton Court and he and the garage owner swore blind the two cars were speeding which was not actually true. They were also a long way apart in distance. They said they were in the office and it turned out later that you could not see the road from the window which was obscured by the pumps.

The case was held proved and the two lost their licenses for a year. The Magistrate even asked if one man could be found guilty of racing and not the other! So that shows what can happen when they decide they want to do you come what may.

I personally had cause to talk to an officer from the same station about another matter a little later and he told me straight that he and his mates would perjure themselves to prove a case!

I am not saying this might happen now but he must go to court armed with every bit of knowledge about the situation and be ready for anything that might come up. He really needs a sharp lawyer to represent him who understands the in and outs of motoring law. Its a bad bit of motoring history to have on your records.

Les

Jye

Intresting story Les. The thing that gets me is, as police are only human, why would police testimony be given credence over anyone elses? Lets face it, humans lie, so therefore the police lie. There have been many high profile cases over the years where the police have been found guildy of perjury, and as lying can benefit the police as much as joe public, gving particular credence to police testimony is a travesty of justice.

I personally have been fitted up in court by two coppers, and it's the dirtiest, scummiest thing I have ever had happen to me. The judge summed up, that while he felt my testimony was accurate and faithful, and even though one of the police actually fecked up his testimonty (the PF coached him into changing his story straight away), that he must take the word of two (lying scumbag) police officers over mine.

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Just sent the BBC link to my friend

Leslie

Yes I understand what you are saying Jye, and it is a shame that things come to such a pass. The danger from all this is that people become wrongly convicted by assumption and although some may well be guilty, not everyone is and that is not fair to those who are being charged.

I can well imagine how you felt too.

Les

unclebuck

I'm at a loss to understand what's going on here. Going back to the original post:

"A friend of mine has a son who has only been driving a year (18 years old) and 3 months ago he had a serious accident in a 30mph limit

I only saw one photo of the car a Peugeot 306 but it didn't have one straight panel left, the driveshalfts were out and the engine fell out when the put it onto the recovery truck I'd estimate the actual speed to have been nearer 70mph.

Surely dangerous young tearaways such as this should be prosecuted with the full force of the law, and yet everyone seems hell bent on getting them let off and that the police are in some way trying to 'fit them up'!

UB