Fuzz

heard something earlier in the week about joe public being done by a gatso and decided to test out the accuracy of them.. his conclusions pointed towards them being not so accurate as first suggested and his defence rested on this....

Just wondering if "big brother" had a word with the judges and he got convicted or not.......



Andy

hedgehog

What actually happened, as I posted yesterday, was that he requested that his case be given a full day in court because he had a lot of evidence to present. In the end it was allocated only 2 hours.

He requested an adjournment and stated that he wouldn't turn up but would appeal to the Crown Court if the case went ahead without him.

The Crown Court is usually a much more "balanced" place to argue such cases so such a thing would almost certainly have been in his interests anyhow.

However, it looks like his adjournment has been granted and he is going to be given a full day at some time in the future. I think big brother would be keen to keep this out of the Crown Court for as long as possible. As it only impacts upon GATSOs I guess they hope they can keep him hanging about until all the affected units are replaced or whatever.

From what I can gather each and every GATSO he tested had an error and in each case the error made the vehicle look like it was going faster than it actually was. Clearly a random error then with no possibility that it was fixed like that.

Fuzz

sorry, missed the post in amongst all the drivel

Andy

Cheers anyway.

GC8

Unfortuantely his considered arguements and carefully prepared evidence will go over the magistrates heads and they will spend the day playing with their pencils and looking out of the window..... before finding him guilty.

Do you have the right of appeal to a higher court with a traffic case?

Simon

warrenm2

have just spent the whole of today in a magristrates court - i can confirm there was no looking out windows - cos there wasnt any.... http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=394466

GC8

Of course, it doesnt happen all of the time Warren; but Ive seen it happen in complicated cases; this is based on my experience rather than my prejudice.

Simon

hedgehog

It is fairly well established that magistrates courts are not the place to get justice, especially if the case is complex and this is one reason why Mr. Edgar may not have been too concerned about having to go direct to the Crown Court rather than mess about in the Mags Court. In truth it is likely that he will have to take this route anyhow so it might have saved him some time but it would seem that he has the resources to go to the Crown Court, something that the majority of people lack which is what many speeding convictions in the Mags Court rely upon.

I believe that 96% of all cases heard in the Mags Court get a guilty verdict. The generally law abiding motorist is not entitled to legal aid etc. to appeal and so just has to accept that all the ills in society are laid at his door. The real criminals, of course, have legal aid and all the help they need to resource all manner of appeals and stalling tactics.

warrenm2

I would seriously doubt this. I was in court today, and whilst talking to the clerk of the court, asked exactly this question. Apparently figures arent collected on this, but a lot of cases fail on technical merits e.g. no witnesses turn up, no evidence for other reasons, incorrect paperwork etc. Then also they do let people off as well Ive heard!

Tiggs

"The generally law abiding motorist is not entitled to legal aid etc"

they arent in court though....the ones that are have broken a law.

OllyK

Surely they are there because they have been charged with breaking a law, if found innocent then no law was broken and so an innocent would have been in court

hedgehog

Well, it gets more and more interesting and it looks like "big brother" has indeed swung into action.

Mr. Edgar has been refused the right to present his evidence on the timing of GATSOs in court because:

“The Crown Prosecution Service has consequently ruled that the Gatso evidence is not relevant…”

Now, I am not sure exactly where he is going to take it from here however my guess is that they are trying to force him into a position where it becomes too expensive, in terms of appeals etc., to actually present his evidence. If the GATSO problems are never tried in court then no precedent is set and so the partnerships have no problems, at least in terms of paying fines back and removing points from licenses.

In saying that Mr. Edgar would like anyone who sees members of the scamera partnerships working at GATSOs to take photos and send them to him. He believes that they have already deployed teams to "correct" the "random" error in the GATSOs that was "randomly" always working in their favour.

Big Brother really is watching us.

Daryl

Surely the Judge is the only person who can rule on admissibility of evidence?

BTW, nice to see Tiggs shot down in flames

DocJock

“The Crown Prosecution Service has consequently ruled that the Gatso evidence is not relevant…”

So, they are saying that the accuracy/inaccuracy of the ONLY evidence they have of him allegedly breaking the law is not relevant ?

You really couldn't make it up.............

hedgehog

Yes, I was of the view that the CPS didn't rule on anything and with this in mind I don't know the precise situation or exactly how Mr. Edgar will proceed.

My guess is that perhaps they are trying to force him to go to court to fight to have his evidence admitted. That would be costly and time consuming and he might not have the resources to go through with it. The CPS know that the way to beat the law abiding citizen who can't get legal aid is not to fight him in court, where he may win, but to force him to admit guilt because he can't afford to prove innocence. This tactic fits in nicely with my recent post on a huge increase in speeding fines for the "middle classes" while the real criminals get off.

I think Tiggs went down in flames, just before he went off on school holidays, when it was discovered that his dad sometimes let him sit on his knee while he parked the car. Certainly a classic SN thread, someone should do a BTT on it :-)

V1CK1

Its a feckin joke! There is such a slight chance he will ever be able to give his evidence. Can you imagine the uprising when his stats prove the inacuracey? No chance. All the cameras in question will all be fixed very soon if not already and he will be portrayed as a speed nut who cant accept being caught. Thats life.

StickyMicky

personaly i think every body on every car based message board should sling the bloke sum cash into his paypal acount or sumthing to help him pay for it all

i would be happy to donate sum cash myself. i belive everybody else who winges about the gatsos should as well

mart360

The Crown Prosecution Service has consequently ruled that the Gatso evidence is not relevant…”

Then how can they try for a conviction...

the whole crux of the issue is based on gatso evidance being presented to the courts...

the cps prosecute based on gatso evidance... if you are denied the chance to challange the evidance or question its validity it is a breach of one of the basic rights of our judicial system..

it smack of the poll tax court cases... my mate got done, they were led into court, and the first statement of the judge was.. you may not use this courtroom to question the validity / legality of the poll tax, you are here to answer charges of non payment!!

remember billy liars statement on peacefull protest!!

if i recall

"everybody has a right to make a peacefull protest"

so the petol protest comes along... and fcucking brilliantly it was peacefull..

bib couldnt nick anyone, even they admitted it was totally peacefull ..

billy liar used the spin machine to promote dying babys and milk factorys being bombed (oops wrong dictator) you get my drift!!

so what does billy do (apart from running scared) introduces legislation to make it illeagal to threaten to disrupt vital services ..

the guy and his corrupt system and the worst of the worst.. and i cant see how he manages to hoodwink the public..

his contempt was summed up in the paper yesterday.. with regards to the use of reasonable force...

he sold it to you all that it would happen, and then runs away cos his mrs wields the stick and bleats human rights!!!

result the crims get looked after and we get shafted....

there are i understand approximatly 47 different agencys and beurocracys to look after criminals but only one to look after victims..

roll on the revolution..


M

Spoon

Sticks- Exactly what I was thinking before I read your post.

hedgehog

I will see if I can establish the financial circumstances of Mr. Edgar. I suspect that he certainly believes that he has the cash to see this through at least the Crown Court and so am inclined to believe that he is not totally broke. In saying that he is probably just an ordinary bloke like the rest of us and my guess is that they are either playing for time or they are putting him into a position where he can not afford to fight any further.

If he was some scumbag who cut his finger breaking into your house he would be getting legal aid and the personal assistance of the Prime Minister to help him sue you into the ground.

As it is he is some decent bloke with a clean driving license for 35 years who was photographed by a camera and who was sure he wasn't exceeding the speed limit at the time. Now that he has proof that their cash collection machines have a "random" error in the timing of the flash which makes cars appear to be going faster than they are Mr. Edgar is feeling the full force of the system.

We should have a poll to see how many on SN believe that Mr. Edgar stands more chance of having a "nasty accident" than he does of getting his evidence heard in court. I think the outcome would just about sum up the attitude of the normal law abiding citizen to the forces of law and order.

pslewis

How did he test the GATSOs?

Was his equipment calibrated?

If not and not verifiable, then of course it can't be admissable as evidence!

Why does EVERYONE spend so much energy and enthusiasm and money trying to 'get off' a speeding charge!?

Grow-up, pay-up, take it like a man, slow down and stop blubbering!!

Pete

Neil Smalley

His biggest mistake was telling anyone about it. He should've shut up, gone to court and then he'd have had the chance to do something about it. By blabbing it to all insundry he's given them time to do something about it.

Diesel

>subscribe<

Paypal standing by...

hedgehog

It seems reasonable to spend so much energy and enthusiasm and money to get off being charged with something you didn't do. But then as a great supporter of the current government you will realise that your whole system is based upon making those with an investment in society pay for the crimes of those who are below the law. You will also have no idea of the concept of principals and morals.

Stalin wasn't keen on justice either and so many of his victims were subjected to show trials where they couldn't "get off" things they hadn't done in the first place. In fact the "show trials" were very similar indeed to the process to which Mr. Edgar is being subjected.

He is an electronic engineer and a consultant in this area and so is very well equiped to fight them and this is just precisely why they are so frightened. He's innocent, they know it and if he can prove it every single person in the country done by a GATSO can ask for their money back and the points off their license.

As for those people who were banned and lost their job, well I can just imagine the compensation their legal representitives are going to be asking for.

So, I don't think Mr. Edgar is blubbering at all. I think he is kicking them hard where it hurts and they need him out of the way before he proves his case and totally discredits another stealth tax.

RB5SCOTT

Where do we contribute to the Edgar fund????

pslewis

Hmmmmmmmmmm, now then - lets assume that the GATSOs are out by a whopping 10% (unlikely, but I will err on the side of the speeder)

That means if it clocks you at 40 in a 30 then it should have read 36 - you are STILL speeding. End of ..........

For those you feel sorry for, losing their jobs and such, well they must have been doing what? 110 in a 70? Even with the 10% factored in they were still doing 99!! End of ..........

Nah, its just the new factor in our society of not wanting to accept responsibility for ones actions - PATHETIC!

Men just aren't men anymore .......... they are crying babies!

"Its not fair, I didn't mean to speed, there shouldn't be a camera there, I blame Labour, I wouldn't have killed anyone"

"I didn't see your child Mrs Smith - my neon lights dazzled me and I was doing 50 past the school, so what?? I can do what I want!!"

"Of course I didnt hear your 4 year old child scream Mrs Black, my BIG backbox drowns out any sound at all, and I can do any speed I like"

Pete

Rob D

Hell if we got this around all of the motoring forums and chipped in £1 or £2 each the CPS would be crapping themselves!
Would be good to make this headline news, roll on the motoring revolution!

I think people have just had enough of big brother, and if everyone questioned their conviction it would turn the camera partnerships admin department into chaos!

RB5SCOTT

I would put a tenner in

pslewis

Crapping themselves??

What with £BILLIONS to back them?

With the best legal brains focused on it?

Don't make me laugh ...... they might play with him, use up his resourse, but he will lose - because he HAS to lose!

Pete

Rob D

Oh Pete it was tongue and cheek, get off your high horse man!!

Anyway your missing the point of what Mr Edgar is trying to prove, i.e that cameras are reading incorrect, so if that means 1% or 10% it doesn't matter the cameras are INCORRECT full stop.
I understand what your trying to say regarding speeding but if you were caught speeding at 100mph it could be the difference between keeping and losing your licence, I mean come on of course you have never strayed over the limit.

pslewis

Me speed?? NEVER!!

(tongue in cheek!)

Pete

But this current culture of always looking for someone else to blame is sickening, what happened to 'Walk Like a Man?'