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Old 10 January 2019, 10:52 PM
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This 5,000 job loss thing and their concerns about falling sales.

Is it not simply because every man and his dog has already got one and don't need another one. Feel the odd man out on our local superrmarket carpark squeezing my Skoda in betrween the 8,000 baby Evoques , RR Sports,, Velarrs, Discovery Sports , normal RR's normal disco's etc etc etc. lol

Used to like RR once
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Old 10 January 2019, 11:35 PM
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Interesting that JLR opened a new plant in Slovakia creating 3000 new jobs while 4500 job losses in the UK. Its first plant in the rest of the EU and was seemingly built in response to the Brexit vote. Whatever happens now with Brexit, its too late for JLR. They will probably keep R&D and design in the UK, but production is only likely to reduce.
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Old 11 January 2019, 12:11 AM
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Oh bless the naivety, some media pundits have such short memories....

Jaguar made the same mistakes as it did in the 70’s (and 90’s)...it ploughed loads of money into projects that would provide no return....Yet again it spent all its money making something nobody will buy.

Back in the 70’s it was the V12 engine, they spent millions on design, tooling and casting to create a high tech all alloy engine that weighed the same as its 6 cylinder predecessor but was more powerful. But when it was finally finished nobody wanted a more powerful Jag. The USA has a fuel crisis, California imposed anti smog laws...the main target market wanted a more efficient cleaner engined car and what Jaguar offered was the opposite! Requiring British Leyland to dig it out of its sorry hole.

Fast forward to today. When they previously used Peugeot/Ford engines which met all legislative needs, they decided to make their own very own diesel and direct injected petrol, at huge expense....just at the time when everyone wants to ban diesel and increased legislation has mandated further pollution controls on its petrol engines and pushes for electric. Basically they ploughed a huge wedge in dead end power units and are still developing electric powertrains that will be impossible to manufacture without the use of Chinese sourced resources.


Forget Brexit, they were doomed either way.




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Old 11 January 2019, 08:13 AM
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https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-return-profit

This guy in the comments section hit the nail on the head perfectly IMO.

JLR's primary issue is too many models, Land Rover currently have 6 (soon 7 with the defender) and Jaguar have 7. Fourteen different models is a ridiculous number for a volume of 600,000 per year. But it gets worse, Jaguar's share of the volume is only 175,000 but they actually make 9 different body styles when you consider the F-type coupe/convertible and the XF saloon/estate.

Basically JLR are carrying the model diversity of a company like BMW with 20% of the sales volume. The consequence is they spend too much on R&D while simultaneously spreading that R&D too thin which is why their reliability is not very good. Add factory tooling costs and the warranty costs from the quality issues and the losses mount up.

The stupid thing is many of their models only serve to cannibalise sales from elsewhere in their range.
I can't see much in the press of it being noted as voluntary redundancy though - which it is. The media love a doomsday story....

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Old 11 January 2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ste333 View Post
https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-return-profit

This guy in the comments section hit the nail on the head perfectly IMO.



I can't see much in the press of it being noted as voluntary redundancy though - which it is. The media love a doomsday story....
I don't know much about the specifics of JLR manufacturing, but with modern day vehicle manufacture with modular platforms, you can build the same car with 7 different body shells and therefore have 7 different models running off the same production line. Different body styles add very little additional cost to vehicle manufacturing providing you use the same platform and reuse as many components as possible.This is why they have scrapped the old Defender which was still on a legacy platform and was costing a fortune, the new defender will be moved onto a modern shared platform and be far more profitable.

JLR are also trading in the premium segment where volumes are lower but profit is higher. By all accounts, JLR are doing pretty well. Yes, they have been hit by the diesel scandal, particularly at LR and have been a bit slow to jump on the electric band wagon, although with the backing of their huge parent company, TATA, they will no doubt be up to speed pretty quickly.

The reality is, that TATA don't see the UK as an attractive place to manufacture vehicles any more. Design yes, but manufacture costs are too high and the quality is often low. They now have manufacturing plants in India, China and Brazil and a new plant that is currently ramping up in Slovakia. The new Slovakia plant seems to be a direct transfer of work from the UK to keep production within the EU with no doubt lower costs than currently in the UK.
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Old 11 January 2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BMWhere? View Post
The reality is, that TATA don't see the UK as an attractive place to manufacture vehicles any more. Design yes, but manufacture costs are too high and the quality is often low. They now have manufacturing plants in India, China and Brazil and a new plant that is currently ramping up in Slovakia. The new Slovakia plant seems to be a direct transfer of work from the UK to keep production within the EU with no doubt lower costs than currently in the UK.
I think this would have happened regardless of if the UK stopped (or stops) in the EU or not. It's been going on for years.

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Old 11 January 2019, 01:51 PM
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Yes, it has.
Witness the loss of jobs manufacturing TVs in the UK, France and Spain, when the EU thought it was a good idea to give a whole wodge of cash to ex Eastern Bloc countries, who built hi-tech factories and poached the manufacturers.

I once travelled across the channel with a Po engineer who worked in one. even HE said we were mad.
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Old 11 January 2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ^Qwerty^ View Post
I think this would have happened regardless of if the UK stopped (or stops) in the EU or not. It's been going on for years.
Quite possibly, but leaving the EU certainly doesn't help.

Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
Yes, it has.
Witness the loss of jobs manufacturing TVs in the UK, France and Spain, when the EU thought it was a good idea to give a whole wodge of cash to ex Eastern Bloc countries, who built hi-tech factories and poached the manufacturers.

I once travelled across the channel with a Po engineer who worked in one. even HE said we were mad.
Again you fail to grasp the reality. The EU doesn't give grants for companies to move to Eastern Europe. If there are grants or incentives involved, then they are given by the local governments and more often than are actually just loans which need to be repaid. The UK often does the same to offer incentives for foreign companies to come to the UK - Back in the day, Thatcher offered all sorts the the Japanese car manufacturers to come to the UK and who knows what May offered to Nissan to convince them to stay - its exactly the same for Slovakia offering JLR to move there.

If someone offers you a deal you can't refuse, then you take it! That's no different for companies. Some companies abuse the intention - rather than expanding into new markets, they simply move from one market to another, but you can't blame the EU or even the individual countries for companies which do that - you can only blame the companies themselves and if you feel strongly you can boycott their products - I for one no longer buy any products from Kraft/Mondelez because of what they did to Cadbury. You, as a consumer have a choice and if JLR are moving production out of the UK and you feel strongly enough about it, then simply don't buy a Jag or Land Rover. You can also choose who you buy your TV from and don't buy one made in Eastern Europe!
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Old 11 January 2019, 05:22 PM
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Billy bull [email protected]

Do you mean that the signs outside the factories and new infrastructure, proudly listing the huge grants from the EU are lies then?

or that you'd like them to be.
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Old 11 January 2019, 06:26 PM
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Just wait until we've got 350 million each week to spend on subsidising our businesses. That's after we'e built a new hospital on each street corner of course.
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Old 11 January 2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
Billy bull [email protected]

Do you mean that the signs outside the factories and new infrastructure, proudly listing the huge grants from the EU are lies then?

or that you'd like them to be.
Please show me those signs and the proof that the EU has paid a company money to leave one country and move to another!
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Old 11 January 2019, 07:42 PM
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Nope.
YOU denied it, you prove I'm lying.

And even if they didn't pay them to move, it's the same thing. They gave the countries huge, eye-watering sums out of OUR contributions. the countries used the money to build new factories and infrastructure which tempted companies to move.

If I gave your Mrs/Mr/significant other a whole wodge of cash to go and have sex with someone else, is that MY doing? Or yours? Because it's not JUST down to her/him/it, is it?

Just try thinking these things through, for once, rather than blindly following your EU masters.
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Old 11 January 2019, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by SWRTWannabe View Post
Just wait until we've got 350 million each week to spend on subsidising our businesses. That's after we'e built a new hospital on each street corner of course.
Ah, the old 350 million a week remoan disappearing trick.

Try again.
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Old 11 January 2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
Nope.
YOU denied it, you prove I'm lying.

And even if they didn't pay them to move, it's the same thing. They gave the countries huge, eye-watering sums out of OUR contributions. the countries used the money to build new factories and infrastructure which tempted companies to move.

If I gave your Mrs/Mr/significant other a whole wodge of cash to go and have sex with someone else, is that MY doing? Or yours? Because it's not JUST down to her/him/it, is it?

Just try thinking these things through, for once, rather than blindly following your EU masters.
So basically you can't give me any example because you know it's not true! You made the claim it happens, so the burden is on you to prove it! You just keep regurgitating the same old right wing anti-EU propaganda with no evidence!

You seem to refuse to place any guilt on the companies for closing factories. Just because they receive an incentive to open a new factory that doesn't mean you have to close your existing factory and is definitely not the intent of the incentive.

To use your paid sex analogy, they go out and have sex with the person you paid them too, then decide they don't need their partner anymore so they get a divorce. You never paid them to get a divorce or even suggested that they should get one, that was their idea alone!

I blame the companies for abusing the incentives, not the people who legally provided those incentives!
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Old 12 January 2019, 10:46 AM
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Seen them myself.
Spoken to people who work in the new factories.

how about you?

Liar, Denier, pants on fire.

Just because you don't WANT it to be true....sorry, it is.
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Old 12 January 2019, 11:37 AM
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At least the unions can take jag to the eu courts for shutting a uk plant with redundancies then opening another else where. Got until march to do it.
The remoaners moan about where's brexit bus money gone? We were lied to, we were sold a pup, yet the party faithful still think it's acceptable despite being lied to . They still support the men who lied to them, I don't get it?

I feel for all those people that are at risk in uk manufacturing right now.

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Old 14 January 2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by edsel View Post
At least the unions can take jag to the eu courts for shutting a uk plant with redundancies then opening another else where. Got until march to do it.
I've just got my popcorn out reading this thread, it's quite amusing - and I work for JLR - I'm one of the affected.

The Nitra project (the slovak plant) was on the cards and in process LONG before brexit was even a thing, it was always part of the overall company strategy to expand the footprint. And no UK plants are shutting that I'm aware of. The redundancy is all voluntary - but the media are happy to gloss over that one and make it all about brexit. Currently no manufacturing hourly paid employees are affected by this recent round of job cuts - just office/middle management only.

Even with Discovery production moving to Nitra, there's still PLENTY to keep everyone busy at Solihull, and at the other sites. Lots of things in the pipeline to handle. I will admit though - the Jaguar side of things is dwindling.



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Old 14 January 2019, 11:13 PM
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Tata got paid millions to keep the steel works open in Port Talbot. As soon as the money hit the bank they sold to Thyssen-Krupp.
I smell a rat.
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Old 15 January 2019, 11:34 AM
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'Twas a mistake to allow them into the UK steel industry at all.

They came to Scunny, looked at the technology there, exported it and sold us down the river.
Just as I said they would.
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Old 15 January 2019, 12:16 PM
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We can all buy that cheap chinese stuff , even cheaper once were free the EU !
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Old 15 January 2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ste333 View Post
I've just got my popcorn out reading this thread, it's quite amusing - and I work for JLR - I'm one of the affected.

The Nitra project (the slovak plant) was on the cards and in process LONG before brexit was even a thing, it was always part of the overall company strategy to expand the footprint. And no UK plants are shutting that I'm aware of. The redundancy is all voluntary - but the media are happy to gloss over that one and make it all about brexit. Currently no manufacturing hourly paid employees are affected by this recent round of job cuts - just office/middle management only.

Even with Discovery production moving to Nitra, there's still PLENTY to keep everyone busy at Solihull, and at the other sites. Lots of things in the pipeline to handle. I will admit though - the Jaguar side of things is dwindling.
That's good news unless you're one of the affected. I heard production temps got laid off last year so assumed it would be support staff that got it this s time round, let's hope there's a nice package for them. So castle Bromwich is safe? Sensationalism sells papers and makes good click bait.
The latest one is ford at Bridgend 1000 to go leaving 500 left to run the place. Let's hope that's media hype as well.
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Old 15 January 2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by edsel View Post


That's good news unless you're one of the affected. I heard production temps got laid off last year so assumed it would be support staff that got it this s time round, let's hope there's a nice package for them. So castle Bromwich is safe? Sensationalism sells papers and makes good click bait.
The latest one is ford at Bridgend 1000 to go leaving 500 left to run the place. Let's hope that's media hype as well.
From what I've seen, the package people are getting offered (if they have long years of service), is good yeah. Most people in those positions taking the VR, will be ok. I have a feeling there might be some truth in that Ford rumour, I'll clarify tomorrow - I sit about 3 foot from the plants Ford engine rep
In regards to Castle Brom site - it's hard to say at this stage. It's a relatively small site compared to the others, and production there is significantly lower. Not 100% sure what the strategy for that site will be yet. One problem at a time!

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Old 15 January 2019, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ste333 View Post
From what I've seen, the package people are getting offered (if they have long years of service), is good yeah. Most people in those positions taking the VR, will be ok. I have a feeling there might be some truth in that Ford rumour, I'll clarify tomorrow - I sit about 3 foot from the plants Ford engine rep
In regards to Castle Brom site - it's hard to say at this stage. It's a relatively small site compared to the others, and production there is significantly lower. Not 100% sure what the strategy for that site will be yet. One problem at a time!
The plant in Bridgend, according to the BBC, looks to expand into EV production with the help of the Welsh Government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46843812
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Old 15 January 2019, 05:43 PM
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Had someone in for an interview who works at JLR today, was interesting listening to them. They say that JLR still have a vision for the future in the development of the diesel engine and are still pushing heavily and investing heavily to try and be at the forefront of cleaner diesel power plants above other solutions such as electric. They are the only car manufacturer who are still prioritising diesel over electric. You have to wonder if this is in some way a deal and requirement of their Indian owners Tata Steel for support within the Indian market who are still heavily invested in the older technologies.
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Old 15 January 2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BrownPantsRacing View Post
Had someone in for an interview who works at JLR today, was interesting listening to them. They say that JLR still have a vision for the future in the development of the diesel engine and are still pushing heavily and investing heavily to try and be at the forefront of cleaner diesel power plants above other solutions such as electric. They are the only car manufacturer who are still prioritising diesel over electric. You have to wonder if this is in some way a deal and requirement of their Indian owners Tata Steel for support within the Indian market who are still heavily invested in the older technologies.
There’s nothing wrong with developing diesel; if you have the resources and are already have long experience in manufacturing them and something new to bring to the table (i.e near zero emissions or 200+mpg). Fiat. VM Motori. PSA. Renault. Mercedes, amongst many others all have long developmental history and experience with automotive diesels. Jaguar don’t, and I don’t know what they could do any different, bar pressure accumulators (Already done by the others ) to store boost pressure and electric assisted turbos (not there yet). It’s the same with the 4 cylinder petrols...they use Fiat’s variable valve lift system (Multiair). Essentially all this investment in their own engines is just reinventing the wheel..others have already done it. There is nothing new they can bring to the table in regards of 4pot turbos both petrol and diesel, why bother? Just buy-in somebody else’s for the hum drum 2.0 models and just focus on its v8 engines for the specialist “halo” models. Or try something completely different, like sleeve valve 2strokes (aka Rolls Royce Crecy) or a form of Junkers/Deltic/TS3 opposed piston engine, afterall the world’s most efficient diesels are 2 stroke. Or even better...Find some of Sir Harry Ricardo’s DNA and clone him!

Volvo did the same mistake with their petrol and diesel engines, but have realised when to call it quits; They’ve spent a fortune developing high output 2.0 diesels with near zero lag (the bain of the modern DPF equipped diesels), only to turn around and bin them all; As of 2019 they will stop making diesels car engines! Common sense when you’re a minority player.

Electric powertrains still have scope but will be limited by the batteries, and whoever they buy them off. The motor technology is over 100 years old and the only gain really is with the efficiency of inverter drives used to run brushless and induction motors. This needs the likes of the Japanese big boys as this tech started off with variable speed drives in industry and large air conditioning plant (Daikin, Mitsubishi etc). This is not something that can be done in house without massive investment on the scale of Elon Musk.



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