Italy bridge collapse and the media
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Italy bridge collapse and the media
I find it utterly horrifying and saddening what has happened with such a huge loss of life and the media once again seem to revel in it giving every detail of those who lost their lives when really the public don't need to know and be upset by their stories of their tragic end. Everyone knows how sad it is, why try to make it even more upsetting?!
#2
Scooby Senior
Very horrible accident. I've driven that bridge several times in the past. The motorway there heading to France is quite a spectacular drive with many tunnels and bridges along a steep coast. Extremely old road though and always felt a little nervous on some of the bridges.
#5
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Well, not trying to be flippant but when the past few years the only news has been Brexit, Trump, Corbyn and mad mullahs in some middle eastern hell hole. This event is actually is news so the media clamouring all over it is no surprise.
Its quite a big deal really. Not that the journalists really understand this. Big structures failing is a thing reserved for the third world/China and earthquake zones. This is a wake up call to the first world countries that old steel reinforced concrete structures have a finite life and we, like Italy, are sleepwalking into the next major structure collapse. Hong Kong knew this long before we did, as concrete building lifespan expectancy over there is typically just 25years....so why 'should' ours have infinite lifespans?
Spaghetti Junction, Aston Expressway and the M5 flyovers are all pushing way past the limits of life expectancy for such structures all are in decaying conditions, and being forced to take more and more loads (more vehicles of which are far heavier than their '60s counterparts) yet we persue attempts to 'restore' them rather than building new roads. As I post this contractors are busy jet-washing away decaying concrete supports on the M5 West Brom to reveal corroded steel work, in order to repair and recast. It's only a matter of time before a failing section is missed or overlooked or the repairs turn out to be ineffective.
Or or am I just being cynical?
Its quite a big deal really. Not that the journalists really understand this. Big structures failing is a thing reserved for the third world/China and earthquake zones. This is a wake up call to the first world countries that old steel reinforced concrete structures have a finite life and we, like Italy, are sleepwalking into the next major structure collapse. Hong Kong knew this long before we did, as concrete building lifespan expectancy over there is typically just 25years....so why 'should' ours have infinite lifespans?
Spaghetti Junction, Aston Expressway and the M5 flyovers are all pushing way past the limits of life expectancy for such structures all are in decaying conditions, and being forced to take more and more loads (more vehicles of which are far heavier than their '60s counterparts) yet we persue attempts to 'restore' them rather than building new roads. As I post this contractors are busy jet-washing away decaying concrete supports on the M5 West Brom to reveal corroded steel work, in order to repair and recast. It's only a matter of time before a failing section is missed or overlooked or the repairs turn out to be ineffective.
Or or am I just being cynical?
Last edited by ALi-B; 15 August 2018 at 08:50 PM.
#6
Scooby Senior
You hit the nail on the head there. When these structures were designed in the 60's, they could have never envisaged the level of trafic and loads on the roads today. There are no doubt many thousands of such old structures in Europe which are in desparate need of replacement and not just the patchwork maintenance that tends to get done. Sadly, as always, these things always come down to money.
Trending Topics
#10
Scooby Senior
There was a lot of initial confusion in the media about the height. I think the top of the towers are about 100m elevation, with the roadway between 30 and 50m.
#12
Pontificating
Totally agree with your comments Ali B
I remember when the M4 elevated section had concrete cancer and they closed it for a couple of months in the late 80's stating then it should last another 20-25 years once repairs had been completed, well that's been and gone and it's never been closed since for such woprk and as you say the amount of traffic on that piece of road has gone through the roof in the past 30 years often nose to tail every rush hour as is the A4 running directly underneath it.
I remember when the M4 elevated section had concrete cancer and they closed it for a couple of months in the late 80's stating then it should last another 20-25 years once repairs had been completed, well that's been and gone and it's never been closed since for such woprk and as you say the amount of traffic on that piece of road has gone through the roof in the past 30 years often nose to tail every rush hour as is the A4 running directly underneath it.
#13
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
I was looking a bit closer at this bridge (armchair expert ), and a crucial thing to note is that the tendons (what is usually steel rope on suspension bridges), are concrete. Generally speaking we know concrete tends to perform better under compression rather than tension, so there is a issue here.
What confirms the issue is if you look at the remaining sections, at least two sets of tendons have had a steel 'exoskeleton' retrofitted around them along their entire length. Presumably due to issues with the original (remaining) tendons. This was not done on the collapsed section, and one remaining pier only shows minor repair/strengthening steelwork at the top where the tendons connect.
Retrofitting steel to repair/strengthen is all well and good, but it is a bodge...it has to connect into existing concrete, drilling into that can weaken it further. Also encasing existing structure with steelwork makes it difficult to inspect and repair areas that it covers, so these repairs should not be used as a long term solution, because ongoing inspection cannot be accurate be performed.
Of course, there are alternate means of monitoring; electronic strain guages. These can show loading and imbalances, if combined with good software and histroric measurements could show issues well before they can be visually detected. There appears to be no information regarding any monitoring systems. I believe elevated sections of the M6 had these many many decades ago due to subsidence problems. Subsidence was a issue building UK motorways, I recall we sketched over it at uni (engineering), but the internet appears to fail to find which parts had issues, I do know the M6 has issues, as does the Avonmouth bridge (which started cracking and was only found out after unrelated works).
What confirms the issue is if you look at the remaining sections, at least two sets of tendons have had a steel 'exoskeleton' retrofitted around them along their entire length. Presumably due to issues with the original (remaining) tendons. This was not done on the collapsed section, and one remaining pier only shows minor repair/strengthening steelwork at the top where the tendons connect.
Retrofitting steel to repair/strengthen is all well and good, but it is a bodge...it has to connect into existing concrete, drilling into that can weaken it further. Also encasing existing structure with steelwork makes it difficult to inspect and repair areas that it covers, so these repairs should not be used as a long term solution, because ongoing inspection cannot be accurate be performed.
Of course, there are alternate means of monitoring; electronic strain guages. These can show loading and imbalances, if combined with good software and histroric measurements could show issues well before they can be visually detected. There appears to be no information regarding any monitoring systems. I believe elevated sections of the M6 had these many many decades ago due to subsidence problems. Subsidence was a issue building UK motorways, I recall we sketched over it at uni (engineering), but the internet appears to fail to find which parts had issues, I do know the M6 has issues, as does the Avonmouth bridge (which started cracking and was only found out after unrelated works).
Last edited by ALi-B; 18 August 2018 at 08:34 AM.
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
As far i can tell If the designer hadnt wanted a chic looking exterior ( and simply left the steel cables exposed instead wrapped in concrete ) it might still be upright
#16
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Its most certainly prestressed concrete. The method allows LESS steel than what would have been used just using steel to support the deck. Concrete is cheaper than steel. So it's not all vanity.
What is vanity, possibly, is only have 4 sets of tendons (comprising of 4 individual concrete 'ropes') from each pier going to common anchor points on the deck. Where more traditional designs would have more tendons going to different anchor points on the deck. Almost certainly a failure of one tendon at the anchor point will propogate to the the other three in that set, when all four fail on that one corner the whole structure supported by that single pier becomes unbalanced so the whole sections either side of the pier will collapse, pulling the pier down with it.
The steel inside these tendons would have been tensioned during construction, so that concrete would actually be compressed. It 'can' be very strong. The crux of this is the load calculations and aging. Also how do you replace them? You can't really do it, not safely anyway, hence the exoskeletons on the remaining sections, a method of 'post stressing' the concrete to keep it strong.
There are a few similar bridges like this: The Wadi el Kuf Bridge in Libya, also the Laon suspension bridge in France the latter looks in pretty bad shape. The press pointed out the the General Rafael UrdanetaBridge that passes over the entrance to lake Maracaibo in Venezuela is at risk, which in my opinion is bollocks...because its not the same design....The deck is supported by steel suspension ropes, not prestressed concrete.
Last edited by ALi-B; 18 August 2018 at 01:56 PM.
#17
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
#18
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
I guess its the age we live in.
I recall having to give a 'victim impact statement' to the police to be read out in court as a means to aid the prosecution. I'd rather they'd dealt with hard facts rather than feelings, but in this modern touchy-feely world of snowflakes it's seen as the 'right' thing to show the human impact of an event.
For the press its all about garnering the sympathy of the mainstream public, virtue signalling and whipping up grief hysteria. To them its about getting attention, selling papers and gaining click revenue, but decades on generations brought up on it now think this is the way they should behave.
I recall having to give a 'victim impact statement' to the police to be read out in court as a means to aid the prosecution. I'd rather they'd dealt with hard facts rather than feelings, but in this modern touchy-feely world of snowflakes it's seen as the 'right' thing to show the human impact of an event.
For the press its all about garnering the sympathy of the mainstream public, virtue signalling and whipping up grief hysteria. To them its about getting attention, selling papers and gaining click revenue, but decades on generations brought up on it now think this is the way they should behave.
Last edited by ALi-B; 18 August 2018 at 11:45 PM.
#20
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
I travelled along that section of road by accident just a few hours before it collapsed, I've been travelling Northern Italy for the last two weeks, and had been to Genoa to meet friends who were on a cruise ship which had docked there, we spent the day at Genoa Aquarium and my family an I set out early the next morning to drive on to Verona. Driving conditions were challenging, heavy rain, with frequent, persistent lightening mixed with Italians unique style of driving and no comprehension of stopping distances. My sat nav was all over the place, I think because roads were bridged over other roads, as a result I drove across that bridge in error until I could get turned around and back across it a second time. That was around 2.5 hours before it collapsed. I didn't know anything about it until the next day, when I was catching up with UK news, it was a horrible feeling to just read the headline - from what I could gather from crossing it, there were apartment blocks beneath, I was expecting the number of fatalities and life changing injuries to be well into the hundreds. I can't quite bring myself to read the detail of what has been shared by the media - I did hear a report from a fire fighter who was travelling on the bridge when it collapsed, he reckoned he had fallen around 30m in his vehicle, he was lucky to survive without any injuries at all.
#21
Bridges have been engineered to HA and HB loading since the 50's .
The bridge failure has absolutely nothing to do with "modern vehicles getting heavier."
http://www.bridgedesign.org.uk/tutorial/tuha.html
The bridge failure has absolutely nothing to do with "modern vehicles getting heavier."
http://www.bridgedesign.org.uk/tutorial/tuha.html
#23
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
The problem is not the builder or designer per-se. It's pre-stressed concrete. It cannot be maintained or repaired like that of conventional steel reinforced concrete. It is also not failure tolerant...if a steel tension rod/rope fails, the whole lot fails.
The Florida bridge collapse is another example...brand new prestressed concrete bridge...Collapsed, seemingly because one tensioning rod failed (it was being re-tensioned at the time - evident by the tensioning ram still being attached after it collapsed).
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
The_Gza
Non Scooby Related
4
16 April 2002 07:10 PM